Theory, No Proof, BS, Not Proven

[uncle buck]

No I understand...However when your telling people to do something to call them in you almost have to give them  like a flow chart or Procedure... You know the government they always say "That They Did or Did not Follow Procedure!"  Sometimes I might do it  5 minutes, Sometime I might do back to back KIYI and Pups too....I'm hopping that when people see some of this stuff that they at least try it....

I was just talking to a member the other day...I said...I bet people don't even do any of the recommendations on here... Just human nature..They do what they want...However should they fail they might remember a post on here and then try it.

I...for one have done well calling in coyotes by treating them like we are mammals...What po's a man will Po a coyote and all mammals..even though we have a far superior brain.. Hence all my tactics are were I try to play with their brain...Recently on a hunt...I saw my 49Th coyote show up to yanking type calling.. Actually it showed himself when the gray fox pup was being player toward the end of the calling.. Still kind of like a set calling scenario.  You know again the flow chartor a written procedure one should follow. Prior to stop calling I will always use the JS GFP sound at the end of my calling sequence when I'm calling fox...Lately coyotes have been showing themselves...

Recently a member was so kind to send me a research paper on coyotes...Just reading it ....wow 200 pages....I could see how Alpha's were not like the other coyotes in the pack....Yep you sure have to yank an alpha male or females chain.. However they are the ones that are most vulnerable to coyote vocalization...Also for example did you know that alphas are the one that truly kill the livestock (sheep) and not the Beta or bravos???

So much to learn from the Biologist out there too and not just coyote hunters.  some of the info you can take or leave it..However you keep it in the back of your head and if you see it happening  and then you use it.

[bigben]

I think that is the problem though.  too many people think it is about this sound or that sound or they need to do it for this many exact minutes.  The biggest teacher is experience and no one can gain that from reading.  They need to get out and hunt and gain that experience to become better at calling animals in.  the basics are just that basic.  it is the stuff you learn from the net or read from magazines or watch on TV.  There are too many situations while calling to throw exact time frames down or even exact sounds down.  experience will tell you when to do certain things or to make certain sounds.  it's hard for the experienced callers to give advice because of this as well as for the new caller to understand why they are not doing as well as someone else. 

I think the whole conversation is interesting but honestly I think we sometimes over complicate predator hunting in general.  but please fellas keep it going.  it has been educational and very good debate here.  and I don't think anyone is getting angry over the words being posted.   

[uncle buck]

Nope your right Ben I'm enjoying reading all the stuff too... What's the old saying? "You Say Tomatoooooo I'll Say TOMATO or there are more way to skin a cat..


See some people think this way and some people think that way...By the way that's how coyotes are too.. LOL
So me...I do IMO just don't go out and call...I try to play with all predators brains even the big 17 pound red fox and the 13 pound gray fox too... Could I be lucky?  maybe? Could I be playing with these critters brains that they are putting there guard down ? Maybe? 49 coyotes to coming to a person calling in Pa is not half bad?? Now you have to watch too...Pride comenth before the fall...There are many areas that we have to improve ourselves on..That what we need to do strive to improve and learn more and more and more...We all need to pinpoint our weak areas or areas we need improvement and fix them....

[bigben]

just a question though UB.  how many times have you been hunting this year for predators?  I would be willing to bet that you spend more time in the field then most.  same with bob.  I get out on the weekends if that anymore.  I think I have only been out for 5 weekends if that this season for predators.  The more time in the field your going to increase your odds.  its a numbers game IMO.

[Leglifter]

Of course
don't hate the player, Ben, hate the game

It bites but I may take a carpenters job for the winter
This will definitely hurt my incentive to be afield

[uncle buck]

Ben yep I get to go out a bit more since I don't have to get up in  the morning and go to work..Nice being retired....I have hunted the early part of the predator season a lot this year... I have failed a lot  too.. That dreaded full moon periods but still called in predators then to but not in great numbers.. Most times getting frustrated that I don't even hunt that full week of the full moon... Looking forward for this wind to stop now. Also tonight...No more full moon...It's on it's way out... 


Again....predator calling ........seeing predator and not seeing predators many a ignorant thing is done.. I have done them too in my 25 years..


If anything....if people could remember these two things....The predator will get in direct line with the call and they will most times come into the wind...Now think of the targeted animal and adjust to out smart them when they do this.  hunt close to a call like a gray fox hunter and coyotes comes in you have just been had....etc etc etc

[bigben]

Not hatin LL just pointing somethin out is all.  Jealous maybe but not hatin.

[Leglifter]

Ub I fan the sound cone
and put the wind where I can shoot or where they cant come from.

OK anything else on "core areas"?

[Buckwheat]

Leglifter
I like this core area conversation stuff; I just type way to slow though. This type of conversation is how we learn and try new things predator hunting.

Ernie quoits

You say core areas are core areas but they move around ( I agree) so why even call them "core areas".

Core area? Why by golly that is were they spend most of there time. Core area is just a word that sounds good and kind of fits the scenario pretty good for those educated people.  Me, I would just say were they been hanging out a lot at.
 As long as food, cover and water are there coyotes will stay there and even have a litter there again.  Good core area will always hold coyotes even if the current coyotes get killed another mated pair will take it over when they find it or one of there pups wanders back and makes it home again.
The problem here is coyotes seam to move more then others I read about, why? This is the problem that needs answers.

I like your story about how I affected the coyote’s movement. But did he travel out of his core area to find that deer? I think he found one dead there before in his core area and just checked it out to see if any were there again.

PS he would have known I already left by the amount of sent left in the air and on the weeds and would have possibly ate the crumbs I dropped.

O- Yea the real fall dispersal just started this week. But that another topic.

[Hern]

Been a full few days and sorry I haven't been on the computer.
Saturday morning I missed a Coyote in it's core area. I was check'n traps and knew a few Coyotes were around. Wife and I opened gifts early so I could get outa the house early. I set up and there it came. No problem, Christmas Coyote, the pictures were already in my mind. I missed. Should of waited, I think I hit a twig. Did kill a few Greys Friday evening. Was snow'n (had back lighting) Saturday night and I headed home fast. Didn't hunt last night because of the wind, but had critters in the traps this morning.
I feel Coyotes have a core area and home range. And move in their home range and set up new core area from time to time. Example (as mentioned above): when denning and rearing pups.
I talked with a Minnisota trapper that was working with the state to radio collar Coyote for research. His research area is similar to my Pa. area, farm land, woodlots and a few mountains. He did memtion Coyote had smaller home range than he expected. Said in summer time, Coyotes stayed in corn fields all day and most of the night with one Coyote going to sit next to nearby barn for most of the night.
As the seasons changed so did the Coyotes. As one corn field was harvested, the Coyotes moved to an unharested corn field and so on. When corn was all harvested, Coyotes core area was the thickest cover in the area.
As corn and cover came down, Coyotes would move in a triangle pattern from point A to B, to C. I haven't talked with this trapper for two years, but will find out the final results of the research.

[Whitefeather]

Just a greenhorn here reading this very interesting topic.  Perhaps since the eastern coyote allegidly comes from wolves, we should study more about the wolf to determine habits of the coyote.  Seems to me there is a ton more info on the wolves than the eastern coyote.  It is a canine, and if you look at a domestic dog, they're instincts and habits are very much like a wolf.  Sure some have more drive than others, but they have a pack mentality. 
Example, if all of us had dogs and we went to each others house, let them all run around together for half the day, they become less likely to listen to you when you call them.  They can also become more aggressive in that pack mentality.  Just an observation, not stepping on anyones toes.

[Renny]

I agree.  I think when a k9 runs with another k9 the majority of the time it is more aggressive then when alone.  Again this all comes down to personality IMO.

Of course gender and size will play a role too but what about the dog that lays under the table pissin itself.

[Renny]

How about the one that snips at every other dog....

[Whitefeather]

but what about the dog that lays under the table pissin itself.

Shoot it!  Just kidding.  There is normaly a beta in a pack, I beleive.  Either outcasted or just constantly picked on.  Nature is cruel!

You posted while I was...The one snippin is probably the frightened one, and may be the one ending up pissin himself under the table.

In my experienced dogs that snip and growl are scared and or intimidated. 

[scott]

i have read this post on and off for since it started and have started to reply a couple of times but got called away and wasn't able to post.  i have a couple of minutes now and like Renny says, these are my observations and not gospel.   

from what i have seen, coyotes will remain in a group as long as good food supplies are available.  If they are not and hunting is tough they will be disbursed in September.  If hunting is good they will remain in the group as long as they can behave and food supplies remain good.   if a pup tries to breed in the group then he or she would be disbursed to start his or her own pack. 

Alpha females are the easiest to call with coyote vocals because they are the most territorial with the Alpha male being second.   Lesser dogs respond better to distress sounds expecially in Sept and then again in the dead of winter when things get tough, this is also a time when the alphas can be called to food sounds. 

Now for core areas,  I think that coyotes have a big home range with several hunting and bedding areas within their home range.  I think that they will do this because when they over hunt an area the prey become smarter and harder to catch.  just like when we bow hunt or predator hunt we do not over hunt an area.   I will give you two examples, a buddy of mine lives one mountain over from me, if he is hearing coyotes behind his house i am not behind mine.  but usually within 5 days to a week of him hearing them they will then be hunting and bedding behind my house and he stops hearing them.   secondly and i have seen this a bunch of times in the snow where there was a two sets of coyote tracks coming from pines ontop of the moutain to a field by the house where they hunt rabbits and mice.  the next day there would be another set of tracks taking almost the same route from bedding to hunting areas then again the following night, then the tracks would stop around after 3 or 4 nights and they would be gone.   

I think that there are a couple of denning sites in a coyotes home range and she will pick the one where the prey is most abundant in her area and will not need to move the denning site until the pups become mobile, then she will move them. 

as for calling, if i am calling just for coyotes, there are 2 calls that I will always use.  coyote pup and grey fox pup are worked in somewhere. 

let me ask this question, which i have some theories on also.  What happens if I go out behind the house tomorrow and kill the Alpha Male and Female what happens?