PPHA Forums
Predator Hunting => Predator Biology => Topic started by: QUATTRO on March 22, 2015, 06:35:05 PM
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Been mulling this over for a while and wasn't quite sure how to present it. I will do my best.
It's a widely known fact that increased numbers of coyotes in an area will decrease the fox numbers. So, knowing this, if we are seeing more and more coyotes while in the field, should we not alter our hunting practices or limit the amount of fox we harvest and just manage the coyote population the best we can? Or is it a no win situation if the coyotes are moving in?? Guess my thinking is, if we are out calling or trapping fox that are also in turn being eliminated by the encroaching coyotes, we are decimating the population even quicker, right? On the other hand, I guess another viewpoint could be if the coyotes are coming its a done deal and we should harvest what we can while it lasts. There is a lot of focus put on how coyotes effect the deer population, the small game and game bird population and rightly so, but how about their fellow fur bearer the fox? It is already discussed in some circles but thought we could entertain it here. I think of a fellow I know of who lives in Ohio and does a number on coyotes..but he has quite a bit of trouble nailing a fox..why? Because they are being wiped out. I can remember him telling a story of how surprised he was when he came across a red fox den and some kits playing while he was out hunting groundhogs. Said it had been a long time since he saw that. What are your thoughts?
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I think that it's only a matter of time before the coyotes take over and the fox population dwindles. Other than man, coyotes have no enemies.
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I seen one fox last year driving down the road and another the year before on a trail cam picture. The fox are gone from my area. Last fox I called in was probably 8-10 years ago, and the guys that trap around here agree.
First coyote sign I seen here was about 15 years ago. Are the coyotes to blame? Well, when I walk in the woods and see more coyote tracks then deer tracks in the fresh snow, I'd say they have an impact on all the wildlife here including the deer. Now fishers magically appeared on the property I hunt.... Wonder how they got there???
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I was talking to my fur buyer about this.. Was I whacking a farm to much... So I take 12 red fox off the land. So I start to walk on those same land after the season ends and there are red fox tracks all over the place and in pairs too.. So the furmans response is if they are there you won't hurt them..
What happens is the coyotes actually make the land a red fox ghost town.. They just move on to somewhere else. As the crow flys not more then 2 miles away that predator hunter is getting zero 0 fox and nothing but coyotes.. So looks like his red fox moved over to my farm...
:MY FARMS BETTER THEN YOUR FARM MY FARMS FILLED WITH RED FOX!" "MY FARMS BETTER BECAUSE YOURS GOT COYOTES MY FARMS BETTER THAN YOURS!" Sung to the Kennel Ration Dog Food Commercial.. !!! :) :)
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I seen one fox last year driving down the road and another the year before on a trail cam picture. The fox are gone from my area. Last fox I called in was probably 8-10 years ago, and the guys that trap around here agree.
First coyote sign I seen here was about 15 years ago. Are the coyotes to blame? Well, when I walk in the woods and see more coyote tracks then deer tracks in the fresh snow, I'd say they have an impact on all the wildlife here including the deer. Now fishers magically appeared on the property I hunt.... Wonder how they got there???
Fishers are some killing machines...whats worse than a weasel?...a weasel on steroids..AKA a 15lb. fisher..
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So are we saying that there are no fox out west, where the coyote rules?
I really don't know the answer to your question, but like so many things that have been going on for thousands of years, the chances of this happening, (fox disappearing), in my lifetime seems extremely unlikely.
They have survived in the past and I would guess they will continue......
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So are we saying that there are no fox out west, where the coyote rules?
I really don't know the answer to your question, but like so many things that have been going on for thousands of years, the chances of this happening, (fox disappearing), in my lifetime seems extremely unlikely.
They have survived in the past and I would guess they will continue......
I see you're point...didn't mean disappear altogether but there is definite evidence that in areas that are having increased coyote numbers there is a decrease in normal fox numbers as a result..that is nothing new..my question was in those particular areas should there be a change in how we harvest fox..and by"how we harvest" I mean as hunters ourselves...If you're a furtaker that is having your fox numbers plummet but there is a rise in coyote numbers, would the prudent thing be to target the coyotes and try to alleviate the predation on the fox?? or is it all a waste of time??
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...my question was in those particular areas should there be a change in how we harvest fox..and by"how we harvest" I mean as hunters ourselves...If you're a furtaker that is having your fox numbers plummet but there is a rise in coyote numbers, would the prudent thing be to target the coyotes and try to alleviate the predation on the fox??
Confusing situation when Coyotes move into your area.
First off, Fox & Coyote are two different animals to trap and hunt. Fox takers are still trying to kill Coyote using Fox methods. So there is a learning curve on how to work Coyote.
QUATTRO you are talking managing Coyote to co-exist with Red Fox by asking 'if it's prudent to target Coyote to save Fox.'
From my experiences, I would say No. No person in Pennsylvania.
As Coyotes creep into a void area (or your area), you would need an experienced Coyote man working on Coyotes throughout the year. By that, not just fur season, but denning season and late summer early fall. It would be continual work to keep their numbers down. If Coyotes are not in a persons area and they move in, it will take that person time to gain experience to kill Coyotes on a consistent basis. For the most part, time is on the Coyote's side before folks in that area gain knowledge to control Coyote population.
If you are good at trapping and calling Red Fox but Coyotes are moving in...Start learning about Coyote and how to kill them. Coyote population will level off at some point. Reds can be found in high traffic areas, tight to towns, industrial parks or malls as Coyote move in.
Thishere fur harvesting is ongoing learning for we Pennsylvanians.
I never had Beaver, in my area, to trap as a boy. They expanded their territory to my area and I had to learn to trap 'em.
We now have a Cable Restraint season, we learn. PGC now has a season on Bobcat and Fisher plus an upcoming Otter season. We learn.
I don't think you can alter your hunting practice to impact Coyote population. Learn to trap and call Coyote. It's what we have.
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something those coyotes...As the crow flys, not more then 1 1/2 mile away a trapper/predator caller you all know catches nothing but coyotes. Me I catch no coyotes but I hammer the red fox...every now and then I do pick a coyote up with the restraint...
Jerry Johnson always tells me that he wished that PPHA would have coyote contest since they, coyotes are hurting the fur trade big time for him...
Wonder if you harassed the heck out of coyotes ... would they leave the area.. Just thinking...
what I have noticed about the area that he gets all the coyotes...a few woodlots but wide open farm land... Wonder if coyotes like to be able to have wide open spaces and a few places to hide?? many of my areas have about the same equal of fields and wood lots...Now I have called on farms where he gets his and I have called them in to me from the wide open areas.. BUT...it's always after 11:00 PM.. Kind of like when human activity diminishes...
I was reading a computer generated book from a person called DOGBREATH.. he claimed when you call that you should call with cover behind you not an open area.. So when you call from one wood lot to another across a field make sure you have cover behind you....I wish that I had a dollar for every Cumberland county coyote that has used the farmers barns and sheds to come to my calling...Just think how smart that is?
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once coyotes take over an area they are going to stay there until the food source runs out. PA is full of prey animals from birds, mice, to deer and house cats. Red fox that are in an area are there because of the food source, if you kill the red fox they will replace with other red fox because of the territory. This is why you can hammer the red fox on a farm because they will replace with others. Once coyotes move into an area they will run out or kill the reds, usually reds will move to a different area.
grey fox are family oriented and you can kill a family group and they may not replace for years. i have a small area where we killed 7 greys in one year and since then i haven't seen a grey there in years. Greys and coyotes, I think when the coyotes first came to the area greys would fight them and lose. I think they have learned to stay away from them.
Here are my thoughts, I have farms where i can walk in the the snow and see red fox track, grey fox tracks and some coyote tracks. but i think man with all these fox track why aren't we calling them in at night, they are here. i think the fox are getting call shy, not because of us but because if they run into a screaming rabbit they are thinking a coyote may be there not just a human. i think it is time to change things up alittle bit this year, i have some ideas we are going to try.
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UB states-
he claimed when you call that you should call with cover behind you not an open area..
That's just basis chit right there, Coyote Calling 101
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I think it is time to change things up a little bit this year...
Good reasoning. Some folks fail because they don't make adjustments or changes and simply give up never thinking the next change may equal success.
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UB states-
he claimed when you call that you should call with cover behind you not an open area..
That's just basis chit right there, Coyote Calling 101
i have a few sets that i stand in an open field and have killed fox and coyotes.
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Scott, me too.
But I always have something behind me even in a distance. Am not standing or sitting on top of slight knoll, rise or razorback being silhouetted.
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Scott
You made a statement that coyotes leave when the food is gone. I have seen coyotes leave areas when the females have been shot. Another group may come in later and take that area over again. I think the males left to go find another female somewhere.
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Hern, I have a spot where the cut corn field runs on a hill out to about 100 yards. The. Slopes down to a 600 yard corn field. Fox and coyotes will run to the top of that hill and look down at us standing in the brush. Can't shoot with the rifle because we don't want to send a rifle round into the next county. I stand at the edge with the call and send a shotgun shooter 30 yards from the top of the hill. He has to be quick but it works.
Ernie, it is my opinion that coyotes move on when hunting gets tough. They push deer out of an area. Rabbits hole up quicker. Kinda like when we over hunt a place. I think the know this and move from area to area. If I have coyotes behind the house they stay for 5 to 7 days. Then they are gone. But will be back in 3 to 5 weeks.
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Scott
Since coyotes have core areas are they just visiting your end of there range and just moving around in there range and like another part of the area better for many unknown reasons. I seen them leave areas with plenty of game to eat. I would like to really know the real answer to this. It would help me pin them down better. I will say it again! Pa needs to do a real study and stop using information from other studys. The pa game commission needs to get front and center wit real facts. He'll maybe we should get our money together as a club and buy some gps tracking equipment.
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Ernie, I'll buy the GPS tracking equipment if you catch one ! I say that jokingly, but my question is if we had the equipment, how do you catch a coyote and collar it to track it? Then what happens if the collared dog gets killed and the collar is taken.
In theory, I like the idea, but how would one use it ?
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just my theory and what i have noticed. my buddy lives one mountain range over from me maybe 1 mile as the crow flies. if he is hearing or seeing fresh coyote sign, i am not behind my house. if i have them behind my house they are not over his place. we figure it is the same pack of coyotes moving in their range. i know this when they are behind the house during archery season you can tell, deer movement is limited. it is my opinion that they have 4 or 5 areas that they will use to hunt. once the game gets chased for a while they become smarter and harder to catch, once that happens i think the coyotes move to another area to hunt.
not sure that we will ever figure them out they learn and adapt so well. would be neat to collar a couple and track their movements.
this year behind the house i saw at least 6 different fox during the archery season. 2 grey fox pups, 1 adult grey and 3 reds. i didn't get any of those behind the house. didn't even have a call in. a lot of tracks in the snow but for some reason they are not responding to calls. i have some different things we are going to try this year so we will see how it works. can't hurt.
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I stand at the edge with the call and send a shotgun shooter 30 yards from the top of the hill. He has to be quick but it works.
Not trying to split hairs, but you (caller/sound) are at edge, shooter is on side hill (not silhouetted).
Your methods, at this location, are what I been saying for years...one has to make adjustments and pay attention to detail. Certainly not the basis chit.
Buckwheat says-
Pa needs to do a real study...
Why?
...and stop using information from other studies.
What states? And where did the PGC print this info?
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Jake
There is a lot of different tracking devices.
I like the ones that track by satellite.
Then when they get close to there run time expires the collar
drops off. You can read about them on the net.
Catch one by leg hold and collar him.
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Hern
If the PGC has not done an in depth study on coyotes in PA. Were did they get there information?
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Scott
All good information on coyotes in your area but only two parts of there range. We're are they when not at those two locations
They probably act the same in other areas but that would just be another guess. That is why I too would like to see them radio tracked in different human population places in the state.
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Im not sure the general public can legally perform a tracking study like that? I always wanted to do this with Rattlesnakes but it is not legal for some reason. Maybe because they are a species of concern. Of course Coyotes do not fall into this category.
Have you noticed all studies on coyotes are performed by Government or University's provided grants from the Government? There is a reason for that i'm sure. Maybe if you had an acredited biologist on your team you may be allowed.
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Well if it's not illegal it should be. We don't need another animal with a tag,collar or flag up his or her a**,parading around the woods in the name of science. I give you the Tuscarora Golden Eagle project, on the surface this seems a rather mundane experiment. Place deer carcasses for bait and take pictures. However the downside in my opinion is the non-target species lured in for a free meal. Bears for instance have been photographed with some nasty face wounds from fighting,imagine that,free food,equals concentration,equals fighting. The other downside would be if every hooftie was allowed to track by electronic device,they would be sticking there trophy buck,or whatever, with a tracking device and "BINGO" take the guess work out of the 1st day. We almost have this now with the "SMART Trail Cams" that alert you to game present at your cam location...and collared hounds....whatever happened to "FAIR CHASE"? .............JMO................. 8)
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Jasper
How can collecting information on coyotes be unfair.
It is not like anyone wants to shoot the tracked coyotes.
Fair chase. LOL You mean like tree stands cross bows, in line rifles as black powder. Old and young first chance at game. Private food plots to shoot over. GPS mapping. Fair chase today only means what the laws allow.
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Ernie, Good point about "fair chase" many states allow baiting.... You forgot that one!
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MJake...Pa is allowing that in the special tag areas now :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ before long we are gonna have a tax on shroons... ??? ??? ??? ??? If hunters would be "Honest" and report kills, deer, coyote, etc. they could garner a fair amount of data...but it's hard, takes too long and I don't have a computer...etc. etc.. :P :P :P :P Why as a club can't we collect data from our members?? ??? ??? ??? Such as a harvest report, the SRWA that I belong to sends out a member harvest report to collect data that is presented to the Atlantic Flyway Council.....just a thought that may cost a member a stamp ;) ;) ;)
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There was a time when I use to go predator hunting right at dark... Especially when you had to quit hunting at 1201AM Sunday morning... However what I do now is I start to get ready at 8 ...many times won't start until about 9;30PM for fox.. However noticed that coyotes are more vulnerable after 11:oo PM.. they will come out into the fields or the stubble corn then..So if I know coyotes are in a area I start calling at 11:00 PM. it's almost like they know that man is bedding down for the night. Actually heck the spot lighters have to quit at 11:00 PM.
I do think that coyotes act different in different parts of Pa too..You start to see a pattern developing on how they come to the call in populated small acre areas... Also so important to watch where the rabbits are at the we hours... Many a time I don't even yank chain and play with their brain then... I do rabbit distress...You got to be able to start to read the land.. Like large fields with a tree line and on your side a field that is small in acres.. when you do the rabbit distress and the coyotes are on those farms they come running through the tree line right into the small acres of brush..this is places that the rabbits are in abundance too... One farm I just park the car and head for a corner.. I have called many a coyote in that small patch. Actually Scott came down one time and we called a coyote on that farm.. Soon as we turned on the electronics it came running right at us across the large field.. it was feeding on a road killed deer that made it on the far end of the open big field... Sadly we didn't know it was feeding on the carcass.. however as soon as our light hit it ran in the other direction....
what you need to do is sometime if you get a chance... go hunt with some Texans on their lands and just watch on they set up...I now hunt like them ... All that Dennis Kirk BS of hunting with the wind at your back is history with me...I might hunt cross wind or most times it's the wind in my face and the coyotes will come in from the up wind side. There other tricks you use to now in populated areas when there are roads at your back and fields across the from the farms your hunting on...I truly like Oct when there is high corn up yet...They be in that corn!!!!!!Shotgun needed then...
Scott and I have hunted many a time now.. We always call in coyotes!!!!!
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Been out of the country for several weeks and was glad to see this thread gathered some steam since I first started it..thought it may have ended up a dud..good info and thoughts as usual..good to keep the gears turning, thanks for responding. There was a good write up in some magazine I read recently, which I cannot for the life of me remember the name, that followed two trappers.. one or both of whom were also biologists, in Alabama. They were called in to trap, collar and take DNA samples among other info for a study being spearheaded by several universities and the states of Georgia, Alabama and South Carolina...if my memory serves me correct. It is being dubbed as the most comprehensive one of its kind..will be interesting to see what it finds...I've also read an account of a gps collared coyote that profiled the coyotes travels over the course of an entire night, in real time, from the time it left its den til it returned. All very interesting. They also have crittercams on the "new species" of urban coyotes in Chicago. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/11/141121-coyotes-animals-science-chicago-cities-urban-nation/ (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/11/141121-coyotes-animals-science-chicago-cities-urban-nation/) ...they are enigmatic, prolific and here to stay...thats something I think we can all agree on and these dialogues are how we will evolve and adapt just like they are.
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I learned a lot form this study... there was a time the doctor had a 1 hour Youtube video that gave you all kinds of valuable data you could use to know the Eastern Coyotes... Maybe someone on here that knows what I'm talking about can post that video link if they have it.. http://theconservationagency.org/coyote/
Some of the data spelled out just how they think and where they like to have their dens.
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UB Great link. I enjoyed the info in one the article
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UB Great link. I enjoyed the info in one the article
Agreed...cool link.
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Some of the things I remember from the study video are: If a coyotes starts to eat say sheep... Just like us they develop and taste for it.. we like the same kind of salad or a pizza with a pepperoni topping...Once they start to eat the same thing over and over again they like it and they will start to kill it...I think about all the deer pits that are all over ever PGC.. wonder if we are making the coyotes like venison by them feeding on the dead deer that are thrown into these pits.. grant you the deer are dead but are we getting them to like the taste of venison...Same for cats... You feed cats or feral cats in you backyard.. The coyotes come in start to eat the cat food and then the cats too.. They get this hankering for feline like that.. People are their own worse enemies.. many of the tree huggers that feed animals are actually selling their death sentence. Piles of dead chickens on a farm. yep we are getting those coyotes to start to kill the live chickens... I would think the same applies for fox too.. they start to eat the dead chickens on a pile then they like it and then start to kill the farmers live chickens..
All dens will be close to water or in a swamp area...
I learned something myself about the two types of coyote packs.. .Ones that have smaller populations that live off the land and eat what is natural.. it said they have 3-7 adults in their pack.. The ones that people put out feed for there can be up to 20 adult coyotes in that pack... they rely on humans to feed them..
I once read a story about how coyotes react to the moon phase... Author claimed that on nights with out a full moon and dark nights they were more prone to calling then on full moon nights. However on full moon nights they were more vocal.. Something coyotes get more paranoid coming to calls on full moon nights because they know they can be seen...
Neat reading today in the web link if you see coyote scat around.. that a good indications that it's their core area... Core areas is where they hang out, sleep, etc..
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Some of the things I remember from the study video are: If a coyotes starts to eat say sheep... Just like us they develop and taste for it.. we like the same kind of salad or a pizza with a pepperoni topping...Once they start to eat the same thing over and over again they like it and they will start to kill it...I think about all the deer pits that are all over ever PGC.. wonder if we are making the coyotes like venison by them feeding on the dead deer that are thrown into these pits.. grant you the deer are dead but are we getting them to like the taste of venison...Same for cats... You feed cats or feral cats in you backyard.. The coyotes come in start to eat the cat food and then the cats too.. They get this hankering for feline like that.. People are their own worse enemies.. many of the tree huggers that feed animals are actually selling their death sentence. Piles of dead chickens on a farm. yep we are getting those coyotes to start to kill the live chickens... I would think the same applies for fox too.. they start to eat the dead chickens on a pile then they like it and then start to kill the farmers live chickens..
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Uncle Buck...Here is something I have noticed personally last year when I started to experiment with bait piles and trail cams...On the piles I usually had either dead calves or deer carcasses or both and of the two, there were times when the deer would be totally picked over and the calves would remain untouched..all the activity was caught on trail cams...sometimes once the deer was reduced to bones the calve carcasses remained untouched even while the coyotes would still visit the piles periodically....just to nose around...it was amazing to me that a coyote or in some instances more than one, would eat the deer remains entirely and not touch a fresh calf carcass. We even went as far as to skin the calves to make it "easier to consume" and had the same results...perhaps these coyotes had a taste for deer and not calf meat?? I don't know about that..but I can say this scenario happened often..Also, at another location, we had a cam'd pile that was 99% food scraps..it would get visited regularly by coyotes..they would eat watermelon, baked beans all kinds of things..I dumped a calf out there one time and the coyotes didn't touch it..don't know whether it amounts to anything but I can say with certainty that the deer was always the top choice at any of the various locations.
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That is some good research there... I had bird dogs that would eat apples, greenbeans, etc but they would never eat a McDonalds cheeseburger or hamburger.. they'd sniff it but that's about it... birddogs are unique critters.. Bird dogs would be a Britt and a Lab...
My friends in Texas told me that the coyotes there will go up behind a calf and eat the fecal matter right out of it's vent aka aurz...
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What did strike me funny was in the data from the New England report again.. Was that when people feed the coyotes the adult population increases up to 20 adults...If the coyotes live naturally off mice and etc and fend for themselves the population will be 3-7 adults... See I keep telling everyone you got to hunt coyotes just like the mammals that we are... Sounds like the majority of the coyotes become freeloaders taking handouts just like the humans that don't want to work for a living... "MY NAME IS JIMMY ALL TAKE ALL YOU GIMMIE!"
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I would like to share one more thing... I know this guy that doesn't even call coyotes... He got permission to hunt on this chicken farm... the farmers throws out all the dead chickens on a pile... this guy I know gets a folding lawn chair, wraps in a blanket and just waits for coyotes to come to that bait pile...He has killed two coyotes already doing that.....
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In the summer time I shoot groundhogs. I'll gather a few up and put them in the freezer. When I go up north to camp I'll take them up with me and put them out. Without fail, within 48 hours, I have coyotes on trail cam and the ground hogs are gone.
I'm up at camp every chance I get. Very seldom do I ever see a ground hog. Definitely not enough for coyotes to get an acquired taste for. But like I said.... It's not long before they have them cleaned up !! Is it the smell, or food of opportunity?? Either way, I plan on using this "method" to hunt coyotes in the very near future!!
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??? ??? I'm wondering...brain in gear for once and after reading the above and coyote food selections ??? ??? ??? Ground hog and deer are both not influenced by man (not high in meds/chemicals). Veggies/fruit was probably washed so chems gone there....just another twist to the equation :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
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Jake
How are you keeping the groundhog in place for the cameria?
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Heres the cam pics at the food scrap pile..mini watermelon and coyote there..
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one sequence later, watermelon gone...
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Some deer pile pics at another location..this pair wouldn't touch a calf that was located very close by..had 2 other different coyotes, easily ID'd because one had no tail hair and the other had a very patchy hide, unlike the ones in the pics, that didn't bother with it much at all either...
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Years back I followed Fox. Then Coyote appeared about 30 years ago and I followed them.
If you ever followed Fox and Coyote on a fresh snow or during extreme conditions, they will go from Groundhog hole to Groundhog hole leading you to every hole in the area or as far as you want to follow. Fox and Coyote are very active with the 'first snow'.
I have folks that ride along with me from time to time and always ask, 'how can you catch a Fox or Coyote in the wide open field or picked Corn field?' I don't say the Groundhog hole is the attraction, I just say I put a trap where they travel. But the Groundhog hole is the main attraction for sure.
Here's a series Groundhog holes I've been trapping for almost 50 years.
I average 11 to 20 Fox a season at this location.
(http://www.trapperman.com/forum/attachments/usergals/2015/06/full-1604-282232-img_1936.jpg)
This picture is the same location (but a bit further away), same season, different day.
The Groundhog holes are at the top of the rise, the dark spot. This set is the money maker. Away from holes, in the end rows lined up with main rows and row to the Groundhog holes. This year, I think I caught 14 Reds in this set and only 1 Red near the holes (above picture).
(http://www.trapperman.com/forum/attachments/usergals/2015/06/full-1604-282233-img_1930.jpg)
Way back when, I knew Fox & Coyote frequent Groundhog holes, so I ask myself...How can I use a Groundhog hole for predator calling?
I use certain Groundhog holes a 'bait stations'.
Not visible by air
Not visible to people
Canines visit these spots
I can dump in lure and bait
They have to work and spend some time there
I can pick likely best locations
I've tried to 'draw' Fox & Coyote, but better found that baiting close to there regular travel is like putting out the feed dish for a pet Dog or Cat.
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If there is a pear tree on your property or farm you hunt, watch the activity when the pears start to drop....coyotes will find them... ;)
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Good info there Hern I like that... that is good wisdom there..
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Buckwheat asks-
If the PGC has not done an in depth study on coyotes in PA. Were did they get there information?
PGC did a radio collar Coyote study in the '90's. I had the study, but lost it on my ole computer. PGC Biologist Arnie Hayden (a great guy) spearheaded this study- trapping, collaring and recording patterns. Dick Hildagrass, Sullivan County, was the trapper employed to capture Coyotes for the study. Years later, Dick was also employed to capture Bobcat for the PGC Bobcat Study.
Am sure you can get a copy of this Coyote study from PGC Furbearer Biologists.
This study and possibly along with recent studies from neighboring states, field reports from WCO's in all 67 counties enables Pennsylvanians an open hunting season and a regulated trapping season set by the PGC. Like it or Lump it, that's what we have now.
I talked with Arnie several times about Coyote. One thing he said, if an Alfa Male or Alfa Female is killed, either Alfa will be replaced within 48-72 hours. Arnie mentioned, in natures way, there is always another lurking to be an Alfa.
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Thanks Uncle Buck.
You can create a good bait station by digging a deep hole or three at a good location. Keep adding bait as needed. It's not easy to maintain bait stations, it takes lots of bait throughout the year and lots of time. But in the end, it will have critters in the area and hopefully they will be around when you hunt/call. Trapping these bait stations is different then hunting/calling. I don't want to set at or near but in a travel line some distance away, that's my best bet.
Several years ago on our property, I dug two deep holes against this stump and filled with table scraps, Groundhogs, Squirrels (from the bird feeders), trapping carcasses, Chipmunks, Deer scraps, Dog Food or anything I don't want to eat. I got pictures and videos of Reds, Coyotes, Coons and Greys working these holes. Nowadays, 'the bait' is gone within one or two nights.
I haven't had Greys around the house for a few years and was happy to see their return this year...
(http://www.trapperman.com/forum/attachments/usergals/2015/06/full-1604-282338-pict0006.jpg)
Am hoping the one on the left is a pregnant Female...
(http://www.trapperman.com/forum/attachments/usergals/2015/06/full-1604-282339-pict0002.jpg)
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Good info there Hern I like that... that is good wisdom there..
Definitely good stuff..
Hern, your groundhog hole and fox account reminded me of one farm I have that has a small feeder stream out back with numerous mink dens..and just as you say, there in the snow you can see where a fox has stuck his snout in each and every one of those holes..very small but active farm predator wise...that stream bank/mink den situation is a very similar situation as you shared...problem is farmer isn't keen on traps as he has several dogs...
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What I have noticed is that when I use cable restraints along the shorter end of stubble corn. I actually end up with a critter in all let say 6 restraints I have along the side of the field.. This is between the field and let say the briars and the growth. Once we get snow the predators start to travel further out away from the sides of the vegetation... They miss all of the restraints... The snow melts then they start to travel again right on the edge of the fields again and our catches start again. So snow makes them travel a few feet farther out into the field.. They come along the edge but not on the true edge.. As of yet our coyotes catches with restraints have been in wooded areas that enter the fields and not along the fields... Just say the corners with a trail.. We set it right where the trail begins or right where they cross through a tree line to another field.. Nothing what so ever along the fields.. I have learned to look across the field and find the tree line that is right in line with the tree line running in the other direction... I could walk over 500-600 yards and place restraints along that tree line... When you have to check many restraints you want to save some steps... So again they come along the tree line 500 yards away cross a field that is about 150 yards wide and cross right at the tree line that is in line with the one that is hundreds of yards away... I call it the Inverted T.. What I like is that how I get some coyotes by when they come through the tree line running in the other direction.. Now if I could find some chuck holes in that field I could kind of figure out where they would head to the chuck holes and catch them in the field.. Also our catches drop down on full moon nights or week and wow does it pick up the week of the new moon. Also rain... wow we even get a few coon then too...
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numerous mink dens... and just as you say, there in the snow you can see where a fox has stuck his snout in each and every one of those holes.....that stream bank/mink den situation is a very similar situation
I have seen tracks of Reds, Greys and Coyote follow shoreline of lake, swamp, pond, crick or river checking out Muskrat holes, Muskrat trails, Muskrat huts and Muskrat feed beds.
Everything on the menu for a Canine.
In the early '90's, an archery hunter ask me to catch Coyotes where he hunted. He claimed every morning inside the woods line/edge of field, Coyote would chase and catch Squirrels early morning until 9-10 am. The action was messing up his Deer hunting. I never would have known or thought of that and was thankful for the tip.
Long story-Short...Next weekend, I made 2 double sets about 400 yards apart and caught 8 Coyote on that property. (Of course I used Squirrel for bait)
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Scott says-
Ernie, it is my opinion that coyotes move on when hunting gets tough. They push deer out of an area. Rabbits hole up quicker. Kinda like when we over hunt a place. I think the know this and move from area to area. If I have coyotes behind the house they stay for 5 to 7 days. Then they are gone.
Here's something I heard from Slim Pedersen and my experiences (my area) too...
Coyotes move into and live in corn fields and rise their families there around my neck of the woods. When the corn is harvested and many 100's of acres or miles of corn disappear in a day or two, Coyotes move away, into thick creek/river bottoms, slashing, thickets or other unharvest crops nearby.
Normal agricultural practices, normal hunting seasons for Small Game, Archery to rifle Deer season, trappers and predator callers coming and going regularly all force Coyotes to move and adapt.
When trappers and predator callers follow/scout Coyote signs in these smaller areas and find fresh sign, they set traps or make a few stands calling.
By that time, Coyotes moved away slowly from all the fresh human activity in this new area. Will they be back? Yes, No, Maybe. All depends on how badly were they spooked and how far they had to move to find another undisturbed area and how long before they are forced to move again.
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Lots of good info was shared on this thread and its almost a year old but yesterday I happened to read something that made me think of the original post I made that started this. A month or two ago, Hern had mentioned a book on coyotes to me that he thought was a worthy read. So, I ordered the book and I have been reading it on and off when time permits... got to the chapter on "Interspecific Interactions" and more specifically the part on the interactions between Coyotes and Red Fox..covered a lot but one finding stuck out to me based on how it related to what I originally posted..the passage was preceeded by a question posed by the author, Gerry Parker, which was answered by findings from a study done for a period of 5 yrs by scientists from the Dept. of Wildlife in Maine, The University of Maine and MCWRU. The question was, " Given the very real competition between coyotes and red foxes, what are the managment implications for red fox in the Northeast? Here is the answer stated in the book: " The presence of resident coyotes in Eastern Maine limits the available habitat and carrying capacity for red foxes; however, the ability of foxes to persist in boundary areas prevents complete displacement from regions occupied by coyotes.".... The next part of the answer is what really got me to thinking about how it related to my original question....the answer continues with: "Management for red foxes should be reevaluated in areas of eastern North America where coyotes have become established. Coyote induced declines in red fox densities may require reductions in allowable fox harvests in some areas. Effects of coyotes on fox numbers will vary according to the density of coyote territories and the availability of refugia from coyotes"...So, I understand this was a study done years ago and in another state, but thought it related pretty well. Obviously, as the last line of the answer says, it is all dependent on the coyote numbers and also the available "refuge" areas for the red fox to thrive. Still an interesting finding. Thanks for the suggestion Hern, great book by all means.
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What's the name of that book? It confirms what we've all been saying. Reds and coyotes have a difficult time getting along!! If the coyote population takes hold like I anticipate it will, I wonder what the likelihood would be to have a season bag limit in red fox???
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What's the name of that book? It confirms what we've all been saying. Reds and coyotes have a difficult time getting along!! If the coyote population takes hold like I anticipate it will, I wonder what the likelihood would be to have a season bag limit in red fox???
Yes. And that was the question I posed here a year ago...in places where there are a sustained number of coyotes, should we alter our hunting practices? I guess I could have been more clear in my asking. I meant not just us as hunters ourselves, but also should there be a concern in terms of a bag limit?? Reading what I did the other day brought that thought up again. The name of the book is "Eastern Coyote The Story of Its Success" by Gerry Parker..again credit goes to Hern for the suggestion. Awesome book if you are interested in the biological aspect of things. This all came up in conversation when I mentioned I had found some books from when I was in 5th grade that got me interested in red fox and coyotes.."The World of the Red Fox" by Leonard Lee Rue III published in 1969 and "The World of the Coyote" by Joe Van Wormer published in 1964....bought them at a book fair when I was 10 or 11 along with another book entitled "Trapping The Craft and Science of Catching Fur Bearing Animals" by Harold McCracken and Harry Van Cleve published in 1978..all cool books..Funny that in the coyote book from 1964 there is no mention of the "Eastern" coyote subspecies Canis Latrans Var...Closest mention was Canis Latrans Thamnos for the "Northeastern" Coyote...which its most easterly range was Michigan..
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What I have seen is were there are coyotes red fox numbers are down.
But I have killed red fox right out side of were coyotes are.
It seems they continue to live where coyotes are just in lesser numbers and on the edge. I have even called in red fox useing coyote pup distress wile calling coyotes. But the red fox used cover to come in and we're very cautious on coming in close. If I am in the coyote core ares there are no redfox. When you get to a spot you are sure held redfox and the stand location now sucks a coyote might have moved in. Use coyote vocals the next time there and stay in cover day or night. Coyotes hate to come out in the open here in Pa. There are very few uneducated coyotes in Pa. Oct and November you will have young pups to kill. But the adult coyotes are still not dumb. I have found redfox move into residential areas and stay out of their standard primary areas. Coyote prefer areas where people do not bother them at all. If you know a spot where people cannot go or a place people never go that will end up being a coyote core area. That area can be as small as one or two acre plot. When adult coyotes leave their core area they are very cautious. The red fox knows were they are safe to go. They never live in the core area of a coyote.
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Quattro, the studies done in Maine still hold true today in Eastern states.
jake and others are experiencing Coyote expansion and seeing less Red Fox. This happened in my area 30 years ago, but really seen the effect 20 years ago when Coyote took a foothold.
It's nothing new. Maybe new to you and your area. But the Coyote continues to expand throughout eastern United States. Coyotes have a foothold in Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi & Louisiana, but friends say it's just like Pa. Still expanding in those states.
From my observations in my area, Where Coyotes have a foothold, Reds may be near towns, malls & industrial parks. I have a few examples where I only catch/trap Red Fox and never caught a Coyote. Very few, very rare around here.
On the other hand...
I have experienced trapping a few Coyotes off a property, only to have Reds move in within a month or so.
I have trapped several Coyote/Red Fox doubles. By that, two traps set within 10' from one another. Coyote in one trap, Red Fox in another.
Four years ago I was calling and killed a Coyote/Red Fox triple. Coyote, then Red, then another Red.
I don't know what I'm getting at. Not trying to say Reds-Coyote co-exist, the don't. But sorta like Coyote-Wolf relationship. If there is a edge or crack a Red Fox can set up on fringe of Coyote range, Red will do that.