Theory, No Proof, BS, Not Proven

[Whitefeather]

I would suspect if there is a bunch of young ones in their pack, you would be able to call em in pretty easily with food or old male sounds till they wise up and move on, or get killed.  I think its possible you could also have a male who was possibly going to challenge the Alpha soon who would step up.  Either way, I think they would move on.

[uncle buck]

I  would think a new coyote would take over and become the leader of the pack...Once was told by a hunter in Arizona...that in the Spring if you killed one of the Alpha's when they are rearing pups...The other alpha starts to kill livestock because of the pressure to get food.. Also that if you kill the Alpha Male you better kill the Alpha female and then all the pups too..  I think this was his way of saying that we should not be hunting coyotes until September...Recently read a study that it's the Alphas that do all the killing of the Livestock..So no matter what you do when pups need the protein they, the alphas are going to go after the sheep.. I have seen this in May and June in Dauphin county. Every year , same sheep farmer would loose 6 to 7 sheep. Many of the killed were the ewes? Don't know why they singled the ewe out?
Also in the study...it was the alpha that come to the call easier then the beta. The male and female beta or bravo could give a jack about other coyotes coming into the area... However not so for the Alpha's.. It was kind of like Keep Off My Turf!!!
I attended a seminar at the PGC headquarters in Harrisburg....It was open to the public and the State  Trapper gave a talk about the Pa coyote.
He claimed when he would dispatch a coyote.. he would take his hands and climb up the back of the coyote and when he got to it's neck he would Break it... The Beta or Bravo would do nothing an allow him to do this... However he said if you got an alpha in a trap...As soon as you started to take your hands up the outside of their back...They would try to bite you....Hoping you can see how the alpha are more aggressive then the passive Beta or bravo of the pack... See...like I said ... You got to yank that alpha coyotes chain be it a the female or the male....? 

[Whitefeather]

I dont get the yank of the chain statement you frequently make.

[scott]

i can come on here and say i am the best at calling predators and trapping and none of you other guys know what you are talking about.  I am sure some would come back and argue there point that i wasn't.  but really i was just yanking their chain to see if i could get someone upset enough to care.  same thing with coyotes, come into an alphas territory and say here i am the new dog in town.  if you do it the right way they dont figure you out to be human either by scent of sight then they are going to come in..  kinda like if you are mad and not thinking clearly you may say or do something you normal wouldn't.  the right things at the right time can make the drop their guard.  Uncle Buck will explain it better than i can. 

[scott]

if i come into an area and kill the alpha male and female then there will be a fight over the territory, other packs will know they are gone and will try and take it over.  if there are any family members left they will have to try and defend or be driven off.   it is a very good time to hunt that area hard for the next week or so and with a lot of coyote vocals. 

[uncle buck]

Think of Eastern coyote calling like a STING..   You know you do things to people and you make them drop their guard and they do things that normally they would not do..This goes on in life all the time... Best example but no intentions....What if someone said something about your family?  Or better yet  someone a neighbor started throwing things into your yard.  Just say you looked out your window and you see the neighbor come on to your property and pour old oil from his car all over you lawn.. Now what would your reaction be to that?  it would upset you...Your neighbor is yanking your chain by doing things to YOUR TURF!!

When other coyotes come into the areas occupied by a pack of coyotes... The same thing happens...The Alpha male and female don't take kind to it...So what you need to do is simulate that you are that infringing coyote .  You have come into the coyotes home range... Your going to sires his females,  kill their young coyotes, take their food... Coyotes mammals just like us want to protect their turf!!!! So by making them think your another coyote you get them so upset that eventually they come in to investigate...And to whoop Butt!!

Now what you do to do this is:  To do coyote vocalization but then keep quiet for long periods of time.. Now it the quiet time that works on the coyote alphas in the pack... They just heard a coyote howl twice..  They hear this and IMO they are starting to think "WHAT THE
Then on the 2ND vocalization maybe about 8 minutes later they hear a pup and or a KIYI fight...Now this even gets them whooped...You could throw in a minute of rabbit squalls and then 8 more minutes of silence.. So here you are:  My howl just let the coyotes that I am a coyote and I am now on their turf.  The kiyi and the pup makes them think I want to hurt the pups,  Then they hear the food sound and they think I am going to take their food.  Then I would do a coyote challenge now this is the one that say...I the simulated coyote want to fight and take their lands, females, pups, and food.  Surely you can see strategy here?  Also as Scott pointed out The Gray Fox Pup...Coyotes hate gray fox probably because they would eat the coyote pups.. So when I speak of yanking the chain this is what I am trying to get everyone to think about?

When the coyotes come into fight...they will not howl they will just show up...Maybe about the 35 minute to the  45 minute mark in your calling scenario..  The great Randy Anderson is the one who told me to do this to call our Eastern Pa coyotes and he was right!! 

Here in Pa the important thing is finding the just perfect place to set up to nail them before they smell you when they come to the call.. I mean not the calling, the Yanking!!!

[Whitefeather]

LOL...well said UB and Scott.  That makes sense when you put it in those words.

[uncle buck]

Randy Anderson recently made comment on call ins in Predator Extreme Magazine.  He added that a caller should turn after calling for a short while and face the other direction away from where you think the coyotes are... In other words...Start yanking their chain by aiming your call a direction away from where you think they are... This makes the alpha or pack think that the coyotes are moving away and it's suppose to make the coyotes come in faster then the 35 to 45 minute mark...It also could make them show up right in rifle or shotgun range..  I have not tried this yet but am looking forward to adding this to my scenario from now on because it makes a lot of sense.

[Renny]

If only targeting the "Top Dogs" in a population you are calling a small percentile.

[Hern]

scott says-
if i come into an area and kill the alpha male and female then there will be a fight over the territory
Good theory. And that happens anytime of the year, with or without alfa pair. If another pack moves in, and alfa pair is out of earshot or long distance away other members will defend territory, win or lose, they will defend in hopes the boss shows.
Arnie Hayden did the first Coyote study in Pa. I ask Arnie some questions about  Coyotes and about the Alfa pair. Arnie told me when the alfa male is removed, He is usually replaced within 72 hours with a good popualtion. I think this holds true in other states with high density population.

[scott]

If only targeting the "Top Dogs" in a population you are calling a small percentile.

very true,  most of the time i start off with distress sounds just in case.   

[uncle buck]

Most times I am not even hunting coyotes... I am hunting fox... I will be using food sounds.. I have called in coyotes with jackrabbit sounds already.. However like I posted in other post..It's the woodpecker distress that gets them howling.. That is when I go to the coyote calling scenario.. Me I don't truly target alphas... I try to call in Eastern Coyotes.. I will not do the coyote challenge until about the 35 minute mark since all the other coyote vocalization will call in every coyote... Interrogation Howl,  Coyote Pup, KIYI, Female Invitation Howl,  Group Howls, etc..

[bigben]

It's funny this past week I have got reports of three different coyote groups in areas I do hunt but haven't hunted in a while.  Last night I went and hunted a spot that I called in coyotes at last year.  I made a few squeaks and what do ya know a hunter pops out of a treestand in the next door field.  he's hunting coyotes as well. 

I have been reading up on the various boards from some of the guys that I look up to in the coyote calling business and I am noticing one thing and that is that the sound you use is and should be the last thing on your mind while calling coyotes.  The big common thing is being in the right location and the right setup.  These are guys in more target rich areas then what most of the guys in pa are calling as well.  these guys are from arizona to georgia to maine.

  I find the same thing with fox hunting that the sound is normally the less important thing and location is the only thing that matters.  get in good area and call it.  I hear about what many people's favorite sounds are.  I think they become their favorite because they like the sound of em and they call animals in on them.  mainly because that is what they use all the time because that is their favorite sound not the animals.  They try something else and it doesn't work they say it was the sound when in fact it could have been a bad area.  it seems kinda asinine to compare a fox to a coyote but in reality they are both predators and they both react to a situation. 

Good conversation again fellas.  I'm just ramblin to tell ya the truth.  I am a opportunistic hunter.  I call for em all at the same time and kill whatever shows up.  I might just try to target coyotes then next year.  we'll see.