PPHA Forums
Predator Hunting => Gear Bag => Topic started by: Lifes2fun on September 15, 2009, 02:25:03 PM
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I was unaware that the use of silencers were legal in Pa for hunting until speaking with someone this weekend.....got me really curious to make a few phone calls and find out first hand.
I know its legal to own them with the proper license but thought it was illegal to use for hunting.
After speaking to the LE division in Harrisburg, I was informed that the use of a silencer, while hunting, is perfectly legal in Pa, as long as you have the proper firearm license.
So as the saying goes...learn something new everyday (http://www.huntingpa.com/forums/images/graemlins/default/thumbs.gif)
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Well do tell ! I know you asked about the night vision goggles too.
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(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r195/smsnyder/MVC-136S.jpg)
It's legal and should be. Works great. This is a Gemtech Suppressor on a 204 caliber. I DON'T BOTHER THE FARMERS AT NIGHT.
The gun will shoot 6 inches lower with a suppressor so you must sight gun in with suppressor on.
Very accurate. Sounds like a 22 rimfire going off. All you need is two passport photos, two fingerprint cards, serial number from suppressor and proper paper work. If you have a clear record you can own one. Must be cleared by the FBI. You can never lend it out and must have stamp with you when you have suppressor. This Gemtech suppressor was $800.00. The Federal stamp is $200.00. NO EAR PLUGS NEEDED. If your going to get one get it for a 30 caliber. It will than work on any lower calber. :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) Simple barrel threading. They use them all over Europe for predator hunting and its rude not to have one.
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(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r195/smsnyder/MVC-169S.jpg)
Hog hunting with a 204. Would have never got on this property without a suppressor. Lady hated gun noise. Took a hog at 350 yards this day.
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Got one on a 22 Hornet and it works great. Quiet as a 22LR... Kinda sounds like a car door shutting from a distance. I know I will have more in the future. The 3 month wait kills you the most, but worth it. ;D
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Foxpro
o yea cool stuff.
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It's just a muffler on a rifle. And no it is not totally silent like the movies. Sounds like a 22 rimfire and cuts recoil down about 75%.
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Foxpro51
and cuts recoil down about 75%
That means A 22-250 would have no recoil at all so to speak
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As long as your super sonic you will have a boom. Sub sonic is a different story, all you hear is the firing pin drop. Funny thing is it made my gun feel different at first, because I could hear and feel the firing pin drop and it made the gun feel kinda weird... The only down fall is it makes your rifle a lot longer (about 8" on a large suppressor) but my barrel is 22" and the suppressor is only 5" (rimfire suppressor) so it worked out. Fun as hell to hunt with as the reaction from animals is confusion. If your away from the rifle its hard to pin point the shot because its a weird sound. Very Fun !!!!!
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Buckwheat. Correct Recoil will be like a 22 rimfire.
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could you put 1 on a 17hmr
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YEP, Any suppressor will work with any caliber. For example if you buy a 30 caliber suppressor it will work on any caliber smaller. I have a 22 caliber suppressor but i can only use it on calibers that are smaller. If you can own a rifle you can get a suppressor. Honestly, i think there great and farmer friendly. Most farmers hate noise.
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(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r195/smsnyder/MVC-144S.jpg)
How accurate is a rifle with a suppressor? VERY
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Well do tell ! I know you asked about the night vision goggles too.
Yes I did ;D...especially after learning about the suppressors......the answer...and into much more detail than I am posting........Night Vision Goggles....illegal to use for hunting....it is an electronic device which is not listed in the exceptions...therefore is illegal.
You may not even have them in your possession while hunting...having a gun (not a concealed firearm with LTC) and being in the woods is prima facie evidence of hunting.
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lol why waste money when most are or should be 1 shot kills.
and i know 3 guys that have them,they are not very quiet,my 22 mag is far quiter,and what farmers sleep with there house windows open in the dead of winter.
most predator hunters are cutting there barrels to 16 to 18 inches,
they are legal but 2 of the guys i know have them because the get out and hunt any field at night posted or not.
thats why they should be illegal for predator hunting.
now groundhog hunting when your missing alot i see the need.
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TO , your very wrong about suppressors not being quiet. My 223 suppressors sounds like a 22 rimfire caliber. If it didn't make muzzle blast quiet why do they make them. You might be talking about those farm boys who use illegal home made ones. Get caught with one of those and you go to jail. Love my suppressor but there not cheap. $800 for suppressor and $200 for Federal Stamp plus you have to thread barrel. Total about $1100.00 for unit installed.
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1100 smackers for an add on? wow I do not even own a gun that costs that much.
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TO , your very wrong about suppressors not being quiet. My 223 suppressors sounds like a 22 rimfire caliber. If it didn't make muzzle blast quiet why do they make them. You might be talking about those farm boys who use illegal home made ones. Get caught with one of those and you go to jail. Love my suppressor but there not cheap. $800 for suppressor and $200 for Federal Stamp plus you have to thread barrel. Total about $1100.00 for unit installed.
its all what a fellow likes,i just dont see the need for them except for groundhog hunting.
i know a guy that has them on his cooper rifles,they are somewhat quieter,but not silent.They still are heard.
his main use is to hunt posted propeties late at night.
thats why i dont think they should be used for predator hunting.
or night vision scopes.which many use.
no matter what the sport there are always some cheaters.
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Well do tell ! I know you asked about the night vision goggles too.
Yes I did ;D...especially after learning about the suppressors......the answer...and into much more detail than I am posting........Night Vision Goggles....illegal to use for hunting....it is an electronic device which is not listed in the exceptions...therefore is illegal.
You may not even have them in your possession while hunting...having a gun (not a concealed firearm with LTC) and being in the woods is prima facie evidence of hunting.
Mr. Paul:
Per Rep. -------- request, I forwarded your e-mail to Rich Palmer, Game Commission Bureau of Wildlife Protection Director.
The bottom line is that you can use the night-vision device to aid in your navigation, but you may not use them to aid in the hunt.
The general prohibition against any electronic devices to be used for hunting contained in Title 58 section 141.6 (6) “Hunt or take wildlife through the use of an electronic contrivance or device not permitted by Commission regulation.” The only permitted devices are listed in Title 58 section 141.18 and do not include any form of night vision equipment. So, the answer Mr. Paul has received is correct; he can use night vision binoculars for general navigation purposes to access hunting locations, but cannot use the device in any manner to “hunt,” which is defined in Title 34, Section 102: “Any act or furtherance of the taking or killing of any game or wildlife, or any part or product thereof, and includes, but is not limited to, chasing, tracking, calling, pursuing, lying in wait, trapping, shooting at…” So, the legality of night vision binoculars has nothing to do with whether they are or are not part of a sighting system of a firearm or other implement of taking, but if they are used in any manner to locate game or furbearers.
The issue is very similar to that of hand held radios (walkie-talkies), which can be used for general communication, but may not be used as part of the hunt or to indicate to others the direction or locations of game.
So, if the hunter was simply using these night vision binoculars as a general navigation aid to locate an access to a hunting location without using another light source that would be legal. But, if the hunter then used the device to watch a field for predators during the hunt, or to locate animals to hunt, that would be an unlawful use of the device in accordance with the legal references mentioned above.
Thank you,
Jerry Feaser
Press Secretary
Pennsylvania Game Commission
Also no License is need to own a suppressor in Pa
It is a common misconception that an individual must have a "Class 3 License" in order to own NFA firearms. This is not the case. One must only have a Class 3 license (more properly known as an 03 SOT) to buy and sell NFA firearms as a business. Individual owners do not need any license under the NFA to buy Title II firearms. The purchase and sale of NFA firearms is, however, heavily taxed and regulated, as follows.
All NFA items must be registered with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF). Private owners wishing to purchase an NFA item must obtain permission from the ATF, obtain a signature from the county sheriff or city or town chief of police (not necessarily permission), pass an extensive background check to include submitting a photograph and finger prints, fully register the firearm, receive ATF written permission before moving the firearm across state lines, and pay a tax. The request to transfer ownership of an NFA item is made on an ATF Form 4.[4]
NFA items may also be transferred to corporations (or other legal entities such as a trust). When the paperwork to request transfer of an NFA item is initiated by an officer of a corporation, a signature from local law enforcement is not required, and fingerprint cards and photographs do not need to be submitted with the transfer request. Therefore, an individual who lives in a location where the chief law enforcement officer will not sign a transfer form can still own an NFA item if he or she owns a corporation. This method has downsides, though, since it is the corporation (and not the principal) that owns the firearm. Thus, if the corporation ever dissolves, it must transfer its NFA firearms to the owners. This event would be considered a new transfer and would be subject to a new transfer tax.
US National Firearms Act Stamp, affixed to transfer forms to indicate tax paid.
The tax for privately manufacturing any NFA firearm (other than machineguns, which are generally illegal to manufacture) is $200. Transferring requires a $200 tax for all NFA firearms except AOW's, for which the transfer tax is $5 (although the manufacturing tax remains $200).
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TO, Suppressors are not a waste of money. Sometimes i hunt in areas close to houses, Long shots are required and farmers hate noise at 2am in the morning. Shooing a 22 mag and 17 HMR won't work more than 50 yards . By using a suppressor i cover the best of both worlds. Can you image how much more property you could get permission by having a firearm that is quiet> Farmer friendly. Yes they are an expensive piece of equiptment but well worth it. In Europe and othere countries its considered rude to shoot a rifle without one. Worthless. I don't think so. Guys who are interested look up Gemtech suppressors on the net. Start at $695.00 :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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2 sections......
The only permitted devices are listed in Title 58 section 141.18 and do not include any form of night vision equipment....basically right here is where he is saying that means they are not permitted ie illegal
cannot use the device in any manner to “hunt,” which is defined in Title 34, Section 102: “Any act or furtherance of the taking or killing of any game or wildlife, or any part or product thereof, and includes, but is not limited to, chasing, tracking, calling, pursuing, lying in wait, trapping, shooting at...
Locating is pursuing which is hunting by definition....I will be giving Jerry a call tomorrow and asking him to define such, because there is many case law already in existence to where individuals were cited for prima facie evidence of hunting with electronic devices without actually shooting at....not to mention....your specific comment was...use the night vision to locate a fox or coyote....if you use it to locate a fox, this act would DEFINITELY be considered hunting. He even tells you that in the last sentence.
The largest difference between using a light to navigate through the woods and using NV is lights are legal and specifically mentioned as a legal electronic device.
If you get cited...I hope Mr. Feeser is willing to go to bat and have your charges dropped, because all the officer has to do is cite previous case law and show the law where it states that "these are the permitted devices" and NV is not listed. But my guess is...he will tell you that he told you that you cant use them hunting and since there was PFE of hunting...youre guilty
and to add to the above in case you wonder what consititutes Prima Facie evidence of hunting in Pa...here it is:
2301. Prima facie evidence of hunting.
(a) General rule.--For the purpose of this title, any one of
the following acts shall constitute prima facie evidence of
hunting:
(1) Possession of any firearm, bow and arrow, raptor,
trap or other device of any description usable for the
purpose of hunting or taking game or wildlife.
(2) Possession of the carcass or any part or parts of
any game or wildlife.
(3) Pursuing game or wildlife in any manner prohibited
by this title or commission regulation.
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Let us all know how you make out including names and titles . Just the facts not opinions.Thats exactly what I offered.I only state what I hear and can substantiate.
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I just showed you in your own letter where Mr Feaser says its illegal to use them to locate animals
Oh and I apologize I said you needed a license for the suppressor.....I should have said stamp...I look at it...if I have to fill out an application.....pay a fee (a tax) and wait a period of time, and then have to carry something around with me and show LEO's to prove I can have something....its a license....but I guess its just a $200 stamp ::)
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Let us all know how you make out including names and titles . Just the facts not opinions.Thats exactly what I offered.I only state what I hear and can substantiate.
So youre statement that you can use it to locate the fox?????????? thats a fact????????
Show me where you can use it to locate the fox? You stood there and said you can use it to hunt....then upon further you said...you can use it to locate game
In that very letter Mr Feaser is telling you its illegal to use it to locate game.....so what facts are you presenting?
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Shaun none of that was written by me it was a direct cut and paste from the Pa game commission.
I never said That it could be used for locating game. The statement I made to you at the Marysville is that I had been told that it was a device that could be used for navigation and observation purposes only.I also said that it was my understanding that if I saw a targeted species while using them that the would have to be set aside and only approved devices used to harvest.
I have heard many statements from people that think they know the laws but when I ask those that the government tasks with enforcing them they say completely different things.I don't claim to know anything more than the answers I receive when I go to the people I think I should be asking.
However I get many statements like --- You may not even have them in your possession while hunting...having a gun (not a concealed firearm with LTC) and being in the woods is prima facie evidence of hunting.
Now stuff like that upsets me because it is not what the officials have told me its some guy on the internet's opinion. Someone could take that for the word of law . Thats sounds like a statement of fact.If you are right and I am right with the passing of this information and we both use the officials as sources and we are still in disagreement then the laws are flawed and vague at best.
Sometimes words ,phrases and terms are used to embellish ones own opinion without realizing that words and terms are the basis of our laws. I used the term " proper license" as an example, If a license were required to mail a letter or validate a legal document then yes that would be a correct statement.
That is according to the English dictionary .
I feel that it is important in a public forum to make things clear when one is expressing their opinion or when they are stating facts,And what those facts are based on. Someone new to this site could conceivably think that you are a law enforcement officer and that you represent the official view of the state . I try to make it clear that I am sharing information that i requested and received thru the proper channels only! Only to have someone tear them apart . I don't make this stuff up. It upsets me that I do the leg work and think I am exercising my rights to access of the government only to have someone misrepresent the law by adding their interpretation. I had a total of nine posts over the last couple of years on here for a reason. I'm here to listen and learn and when I know something for fact share it.
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me and you had our bout with this over on hunting pa. but I got a question. if you are using a night vision device weather it be a scope monocular or whatever. and you see a inteded target that you are hunting. then you are using it to aid in the hunt per se. doesn't matter if it was by accident or not. if you seen a predator with a nightvision device and then put the device down and used a red light the nightvision aided that hunt. correct? or are you going to let every animal go when you see a critter using NV? because technically it aided the hunt. right?
many of us know that the laws are about as clear as mud. I have in one day called the pgc got one awenser and in another hour called again and got a total 180. best I can say is talk to your wco. if he does not feel that it is against the law then so be it. he is the one that is ultimately going to decide in the field. but it is going to be hard to prove that you were only using NV to walk to your hunting area and then not use it to hunt with.
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Night vision are very hard to use in the field for hunting. I had monoculars that cost me $5800.00. I used them in texas and i saw pigs at the feeders. Now you have to go to a regular scope with light or have night vision scope on your gun. Another $4000 to do it right. I been there and done that. Its very hard to spot an incomming fox with night vision. I rather use a red light and spot incomming eyes.
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once you see the game with the night vision the harvest should be off limit.
but who is gonna do it.
i think they should all be illegal i know of a 1400 dollar scope with some adjustments here and there many of january coyotes have been taken with.
night vision scopes,silencers,suppressors,all should be legal for shooting tin cans.
Not hunting,JMO.
And the PPHA should make them illegal for hunts.
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KP, The statement I posted was the exact response I got while on the phone with PGC Harrisburg LE division.
It is not my opinion....it was their's, citing of the law.
You said what upsets you is opinion...what upsets me is the fact that you started this conversation out as Night Vision is legal to use to hunt. After we sat there and talked it changed to night vision is legal to use to walk into your hunting spot and observe (which by definition would be to locate) fox (but not utilize it for shooting) It would not matter if you sat it aside or not, you used it to locate the game which even in the letter states its illegal.
I thought thought this might be possible but using it to locate a fox would still be considered "hunting" with it so I called Harrisburg, as I dont like people to get into trouble.
The answer the LE division gave me was....if you have a firearm and you are in the field, you may not be in possession of night vision goggles.
Now after seeing the letter it changes to that it is legal to only use for navigation purposes only.
Your story has changed 3 times and the worst part is.....
I orginally posted the part about the suppressor for 2 reasons.....one, to say wow I didnt realize this was legal
and 2 to say privately to you....I was wrong.
Your comment seemed a little snide about the "Well do tell ! I know you asked about the night vision goggles too."
So I did...I told you exactly what they told me...not my opinion....those that are entrusted to enforce the law we are asking about.
My next reasoning for questioning Mr Feaser is.....you have an email saying it is ok to navigate with them......I am being told by the same agency that it is illegal to be in possession of both NV and a firearm (with prima facie evidence of hunting)
I want to know why we are getting conflicting answers on the same question from the same agency.
On a law I will rarely give my opinion....if I havent gotten an answer from Harrisburg about it....I keep quiet, and I told you that about the suppressors, I said...I think theyre illegal, but never asked about it so , I really dont know.
I also prior to Mon, never asked about NV. So like I told you....to me it was an illegal electronic device, but if you had a letter saying you could use them in such a manor....then go ahead, but just as I said before..be prepared to prove you didnt use them in an illegal fashion.
If you want to use NV goggles to walk into the woods because thats letter gives you permission....go ahead....I wont, because I feel it is bringing undue attention to something that isnt worth the court time and effort of getting into an arguement with a WCO.
So again...if you want to use them...have at it
I will go with what they told me. I'm not gonna use them (plus I do agree its kind of a pain to try and walk around holding a monocular up and carrying my rifle....I like my headlamp much better
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i think harrisburgh doesnt realy care about electronics when it comes to coyotes.
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But when it comes to legal/illegal equipment, they should all be on the same page.....these are the things that get people fined.....one person gets an answer that its legal...another gets that its illegal.
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Why don't we just surround the fields with Giant football field type of spotlights. When the fox comes in switch the lights on. No problem now? LOL ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Some day we will all be using suppressors like Europe, Germany and other countries. All they are is muffler on a rifle.I love mine and so does my wife.
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Why don't we just surround the fields with Giant football field type of spotlights. When the fox comes in switch the lights on. No problem now? LOL ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
first thing if your that close a farmer can hear the muzzle blast that loud,your probably be in a safety zone.
i just said they are not for me,if factory guns come with them on,then i see no problem.
i dont shoot 200 yards at night.
if you can see that far your burning and educating fur.
this year my night hunting will consist mostly of a shotgun.
and a dim red lense which i and many others harvest more fur with,and also your not wounding as much,shooting deer,cows,etc.out at 200 yards.
if you want a good cheap muffler,foam ear plugs work great
but your suppressor is legal,ethical and practical,and desperatly needed by a predator hunter.
not by far.JMO
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This whole topic has gotten to where I didnt want it to be...I started this topic to say "wow, I never thought these were legal to hunt with"
It has gone from bad to worse with arguing with all involved (me included) not sure if its typed text or what....just seems that an informational post has gone really south.
I think we should all just realize that if its legal..use it if you want to.
I am sure if all of us call the PGC and ask the same question, we'll get at least 5 different answers.
I think we need to agree to disagree and let it go at that
KP if you feel I was arguing, I'm sorry, not my intent.
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Fact of the matter is I don't even take them out much , Just don't tell me I cant !
I'm a hard headed Irishman that severed his country and feels like he earned every right he has and I wont let anyone tell me I cant without a darn good reason!
It's over
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I have been reading this post and I learned some about this type of equipment. I also think it was a good post and still do.
I never used any of this equipment for hunting but own a night vision monocular I purchased from Russia about 15 years ago from a friend in the military. It is a neat toy but not for hunting. The red lens I use today does 1000 times better. But the silencer is another story. I think I would like to try one. I live in a very populated area and believe me, not everyone likes hunters. So who knows what could be on the end of my rifle some day.
I do like the fact that it is legal and should stay that way in America. We have enough laws and nothing will ever keep an outlaw from being an outlaw. I for one am tired of people making laws to protect me from what one or two bad guys MIGHT do. What about all the good guys that are honest hunters. We would penalize them for no reason.
O-yea, JMO
Ernie
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Buckwheat, you hit it right on the head.