PPHA Forums
Predator Hunting => Guns and Ammo => Topic started by: BigBlue on February 05, 2006, 05:58:58 PM
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Anyone here using a rifle for coyotes? It seems like most guys prefer shotguns, but I've always been more of a rifle fan. Just curious what type of rifles are being used.
Don
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223
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Most of my setups dictate shotgun, but sometimes the .223
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I have a russian combo gun and love but have not shot anything yet with it.
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.221 Fireball
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0000
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It seems like most western coyote hunters prefer the .22-250 for it's longer reach and higher velocity in the wide open spaces they hunt. The .223 Rem. makes more sense to me for PA. hunting. It's easily a good 300 yard cartridge/rifle combination. I just recently ordered a Savage 12FV-S in .223. I already reload for the .223 and plan to use 50gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets for coyotes. It should work well on groundhogs also.
Don
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22-250, 50gr V-Max and a liberal dose of either 4064 or Varget... like a bolt of lightning rolled up in a short action rifle cartridge... :twisted:
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With the 223 you can also do gopher loads that change the 223 to 22lr or 22 hornet. Check them out at http://www.jamescalhoon.com/
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With the 223 you can also do gopher loads that change the 223 to 22lr or 22 hornet. Check them out at http://www.jamescalhoon.com/
Joe,
Real interesting link. Have you tried it before? That 19/.223 sounded pretty wild to!
I just received an E-mail from Ty Herring of Barnes bullets. I had asked if he'd recommend their Varminator bullets for the .223 to be used on coyotes. He said that while they work great on any varmints, they are too explosive for coyotes if you plan on having a pelt that's useable. He recommended one of their X bullets, which I've been using in several other calibers for larger game. I plan to try their 53gr. TSX bullet and the nosler 50gr. Ballistic Tips in the .223 Rem.
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I have some 52 grains loaded with 7-9 grains of blue dot and chroned them at 2400 fps. Working great.
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.243
*PaCoyotenut*
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Browning 204 or Savage 24F OU 22 Hornet/12 Gauge.
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With the 223 you can also do gopher loads that change the 223 to 22lr or 22 hornet.
got a Hornet so why load down, and you can do the same thing with the 22-250 and 14 gr of blue dot... lets just face it, and this is nothing personal... the 223 is a middle of the road wannabe that can't do much of anything right... it's to light for heavy work and to heavy for light work... and these have been my feelings since the military screwed up in the mid 60's and adopted it for a service round... 8)
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... the 223 is a middle of the road wannabe that can't do much of anything right... it's to light for heavy work and to heavy for light work... and these have been my feelings since the military screwed up in the mid 60's and adopted it for a service round... 8)
You don't have to hold back on my account, how do you really feel? :lol:
I have to admit to liking the little round. Granted I never had to tote one in S.E. Asia and I'm sure that experience can really color your judgement one way or the other. For military applications I'd agree the 7.62 was a better choice and that has become even more apparent in our latest engagement. Military cartridges have always enjoyed a healthy following in the American private sector. The .223 is no different in that respect. I'm sure it's in the top ten of all of the centerfire rifles owned in America today. I don't profess to be an expert on coyote hunting by any means or stretch of the imagination, but it would seem that quite a few .223's are used for that purpose and meeting with great success. The .22-250 may be a better long range choice, but if your going to hunt with a rifle you should practice with it and the .22-250 is known to burn out barrels quicker than most.
Here's a link I found on the subject: http://www.beaglesunlimited.net/varminthunting_the223remington.htm
Don
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I usually use the 12 guage with #4 Buckshot, but when I use a rifle I use a 6mm (.244)
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why choose either a rifle or a shotgun? why not get both on the same rig? i carry a Savage 24F-12 (22 Hornet above a 12ga)for my fur hunting rig, as well as alot of other fur hunters. its the best of both words...think of it....that fox or coyote comes in fast to the call you got the scatter gun(#4 buck if i'm expecting coyotes or 3" mag turkey loads if i'm in fox territory) on the ready...if it hangs up on ya out there to 175yds...you got the rifle at the flip of a switch.
theres only two glitches to a over/under combo rig.
~ the weight(heavy).
~p.o.i. usually wont land in the same area.
i went with the hornet because i have a 220 Swift that i cant load slow enough with a non expanding bullet(match type) to keep a fox in one piece. plus its an heirloom and i dont wanna scratch it anymore than it is from toting it around in dark.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/220_Woody/24Fpaint1.jpg
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I'm a bit curious if anyone here is using a .22 mag. rimfire for coyotes? I know the .17 HMR has become very popular nowadays, but I would think the .22 mag. might be a better choice on coyotes. Both of these are available in some very lightweight rifles for long totes in the woods.
Don
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My personal opinion is both are too light for the eastern coyote.The .17 REM. is the popular calibur for them western guys,not the .17 HMR
Will a .22 MAG kill a coyote? Yes,but shot placement has to be just about perfect,right in the boiler maker,or you will not recover that yote.
With all the hard work and how tough the PA coyote is to get into gun range,your flirting with a big let down after the shot with the .17 HMR and the .22MAG. Just not worth it to me,but,too each is own.
Good luck hunting1
*PaCoyotenut*
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My personal opinion is both are too light for the eastern coyote.The .17 REM. is the popular calibur for them western guys,not the .17 HMR
Will a .22 MAG kill a coyote? Yes,but shot placement has to be just about perfect,right in the boiler maker,or you will not recover that yote.
With all the hard work and how tough the PA coyote is to get into gun range,your flirting with a big let down after the shot with the .17 HMR and the .22MAG. Just not worth it to me,but,too each is own.
Good luck hunting1
*PaCoyotenut*
PaCoyotenut,
Thanks, that was pretty much my take also. I had been to Chuck Hawk's web site and he was comparing the two for coyote. The western coyotes are supposed to be much smaller, and he may not have had any experience with the eastern variety. I was looking for a lighter rifle for the longer walks, and read about the .22 mag. A nice 5.5lb. rifle would be nice.
Thanks,
Don
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Here are my predator rifles. I have never taken a shotgun out yet
MY 243
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y79/KEYSTONECALLER/DSC00007-1.jpg)
MY223
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y79/KEYSTONECALLER/DSC00014-1.jpg)
MY FOX GUN 22MAG
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y79/KEYSTONECALLER/DSC00015-1.jpg)
AND MY AR'S
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y79/KEYSTONECALLER/DSC00069-1.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y79/KEYSTONECALLER/DSC00013-1.jpg)
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George,
Welcome and thanks for sharing the pics. Both the rifles and yotes look great.
It's a funny thing, but while many use the .22 mag., quite a few others think it's too light for yotes. I have been looking for a lighter weight woods rifle and the .22 mag. would fit that bill nicely. Savage has a nice looking 93FV .22 mag. bolt gun with a heavier barrel and it's still only 6lbs. http://www.savagearms.com/93fv.htm They also make a fairly light .243 at 6.5 lbs. http://www.savagearms.com/10fm.htm While Savage isn't as pretty as some of the other rifles out there, they do have a great rep for accuracy.
Don
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I own one of the Savage O/U .22 Hornet - 12ga mag that I use to use in fall turkey season when the single projectiles were legal for fall turkey. But the problem I had with mine is the trigger pull is so dang heavy I couldn't hold a good group with it. I have asked a couple gunsmiths if they could lighten it up and none of them will mess with it as they say it affects the safty mechanism of the gun. Anyone have any thoughts on this or it just something you have to live with. Thanks, CHH
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I own one of the Savage O/U .22 Hornet - 12ga mag that I use to use in fall turkey season when the single projectiles were legal for fall turkey.
can you clarify this statement?... as far as I know they're still legal for the fall season... unless I'm missing something...
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Well, I guess they still may be in some of the WMA's but all the areas that I hunt fall turkey in PA (Crawford, Erie ,Mercer counties) they were outlawed several years back.Shotgun only now.Just like spring. Thanks, CHH
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I had to go back and look again... I see they specify it in the fall turkey season section... I was only looking at the arms and ammunition section after that... 8)
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Just can't get myself to take a shot gun out :?
I use a Ruger 77/22 in 22 mag for no rifle areas for fox
And a Ruger 77 in 243 for coyotes
And a Remington 223vs now if I am going to bait. Undecided yet if I will be baiting :?:
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guys, in the regs. booklet page 34. During the fall season in WMUs 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B, 5C and 5D, the ONLY legal method of taking a turkey is with either a Shotgun or a Bow and Arrow.
Hope this helps.
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guys, in the regs. booklet page 34. During the fall season in WMUs 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B, 5C and 5D, the ONLY legal method of taking a turkey is with either a Shotgun or a Bow and Arrow.
Hope this helps.
Yo T we had that figured 0ut a week ago but thanks anyways, and welcome to the board... :twisted:
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Well Dale, if you figured it out? It would have been nice to post the info. (LIKE I DID) So others could have known about it, that were reading the post.
Sorry, I was trying to help.
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I use a .223 or .308, each works real nice.... :)
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I may be picking up a 20/.222 savage used pretty cheap. Whats y'all thought on the .222 for yotes?
If this deal falls through I am going to get a Spartan SPR 94 12/.223. It seems that everyone reloads the .223 for yotes. Is there a load for the .223 that is fur friendly for fox but will also take a coyote?
Thanks
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archerobx,
The .222 won't give you the range that the .223 does, which won't give you the range the .22-250 will. That said, it will probably still work well for 90% of the shots you'll get.
If you can get a good price on the Savage, your doin' a lot better than me. Those combo guns are sure demanding a high price nowadays.
As for fur friendly loads for the .223, I have been asking around and there doesn't a definitive answer. The opinions I've received are so varied, that I took to asking various bullet manufacturers. Traditional varmint rounds seem to be too explosive to use on coyotes, if you want the pelt. I also asked about match bullets and was told they also create too much damage. Ty Herring, from Barnes bullets, told me that his Varmintor bullets would also cause too much damage, so I should use his more traditional X bullets. I've looked around the local stores, Cabelas, and Gander Mountain, but haven't found them yet. I think I'll have to order some online to try.
Don
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Guys,
Try using a controled expansion bullet. Doesn't matter what caliber. You will most likely get 2 holes but there will be minimal damage to the pelt. (easily sewn shut) For Large calibers ('06 and bigger) try FMJ bullets. They don't expand much, but have a lot of punch. Should knock 'em off their feet. Make sure the shots are through the shoulders. FMJs are not the best for lung shots. (unless you want to look for your animal)
Currently, I'm in the process of working up a .223 load at present. Something universal for chucks as well as furbearers. I'll let you know what happens.
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Well the guy I'm doing this for, Has one varmint gun (for now). He would like to keep it simple and not have to resight for each time he wants to switch game animals. (and loads) We can only work with what we're given!!!
I just joined LoadData.com. They have over 100,000 loads in their data base. I've been finding a lot of helpful things on their site. Costs $24.95 a year. You can down load or copy any data after becoming a member. You also get a 3 ring binder to keep printed materials in. It's like making your own Loading Manual.
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Currently, I'm in the process of working up a .223 load at present. Something universal for chucks as well as furbearers. I'll let you know what happens.
I look forward to hearing your results. I've been trying to find the Barnes 70gr. TSX bullets to try. The extra weight should give me a bit more range from the .223. The rifle I'm using has a 1-9" twist so it should be able to stabilize bullets in that weight. So far the best load I've shot from that rifle uses Sierra 53gr. MatchKings over Varget. I wonder if the traditional BTSP bullets from Hornady or Sierra might work best. They don't have the rapid expansion of a ballistic tip or V-max type bullet and should easily penetrate a coyote from any angle without opening up too much, as long as the velocity is kept down they should hold together well. I'm also trying to work up a load for a 7mm-08. It's a 6.5lb. rifle that will make for easy carrying. I have some 140gr. Sierra GameKings to try in that.
It's kinda funny, but if you ask guys that live in the western states what they use, they'll say it don't much matter, as long as you can kill those, and I quote"greasy little flea bit vermin". They don't much care for coyotes in cattle country. :lol: The pelt doesn't much matter to them.
Well it's a beautiful day in PA. so I'm going to load a few and take to the range.
Don
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Yes a great day out, maybe a hog or two will put its head up. My first goal is to dispatch the animal, then I will worry about the pelt. Looks like I will be getting the 20g/.222. I am alittle worried that their is some rust around the scope on the barrel, and I do not know what the inside looks like. I have only seen pics. with the .222, what type of ammo would y'all reccommend? Any good factory or should I reload?
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Archer, start with a factory load something in 50gr. or 45gr. I'd try the 50s first. then you will have casing for reloading. If you are getting casings with the gun, then you can do what you want. Is it in .222 Rem or .222 Rem. mag.?? PM me and I'll send you some suggestions.
Blue,
I found a EXTREMELY accurate load, at 100 yds. , 5 shots. Extreme spread was .634". This was from a NEF Handi-Rifle. I wonder what it would be like out of a "top grade" gun. It was a 50gr. Hornady spire point w/ 26.0gr. Hodgden Varget, CCI 400 primers. Now as far as performance on game, we'll see shortly. Chucks won't be a problem to find, might take a while for a dog.
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:roll: hi , all i am new at the predator hunting. a avid deer and bear hunter. i have a thompson encore with a 243 barrel and using the new fussion ammo in 95 grain. i will give the new ammo a try and see how it does.
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Blue,
I found a EXTREMELY accurate load, at 100 yds. , 5 shots. Extreme spread was .634". This was from a NEF Handi-Rifle. I wonder what it would be like out of a "top grade" gun. It was a 50gr. Hornady spire point w/ 26.0gr. Hodgden Varget, CCI 400 primers. Now as far as performance on game, we'll see shortly. Chucks won't be a problem to find, might take a while for a dog.
I have the H+R Ultra Varmint, same as the NEF, and it just loves that cheap white box Winchester USA 45gr JHP ammo. 40 rounds for $12 at Walmart and I can't touch it with any reload I've tried. That rifle has a 1-12" twist and won't stabilize anything larger than 55gr. bullet. The Savage I now have is a 1-9" twist and should do better with heavier weight bullets up to 70gr., but so far the best groups I'm seeing are with the Hornady 40gr. V-Max moly bullets.
Don
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:roll: hi , all i am new at the predator hunting. a avid deer and bear hunter. i have a thompson encore with a 243 barrel and using the new fussion ammo in 95 grain. i will give the new ammo a try and see how it does.
castor,
First off, WELCOME, I see this is your first post and hopefully you'll spend more time here.
The T/C Encore is a fine rifle. I have owned a .243 Encore in the past and it was extremely accurate. I believe I was using Hornady 100gr. BTSP ammo in that rifle. It dropped a deer in it's tracks.
Don
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Blue,
I know what you mean about the Win. ammo. My buddy got a box of the 55gr. FMJ and they shot great. About 1" at 100 yds.
Sometimes expensive or fancy names just don't cut it.
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the .22-250 is known to burn out barrels quicker than most.
Say what? What web forum did you read that garbage in? The .220 swift was rumored to be a barrel burner in the "campfire talk" about 20 years ago. Today it will last as long as a 250, 243 or even the hyped up wssm's.
Barrel life in a varmint rifle has many variables as to how barrel life is affected, which there really isn't enough room on this forum to discuss, but a few of them are barrel and throat temp.,bullet weight, speed, average chamber pressure...and the most often overlooked one is care of the chamber and barrel. I know people who religiously clean their rifles, and guys that might run a patch or two per year down their barrels...and that is the most common cause of a "shot out" barrel...lack of knowledge of how to properly clean and preserve the bore and barrel of a rifle.
98% of average hunters will never "shoot out" a barrel in rifle. With that said, the 22-250 is a round that is near and dear to my heart, I shoot mine quite a bit, year round, and use it for most of my hunting, the chamber and barrel are cleaned after every use, whether it is fired or not. It is a pretty consistent piece, and I believe it will be for many years to come, I dare say it will be quite a few years, if even then, that the barrel is ever ....shot out.....and yeah by the way....I am one of those guys from out west who likes the long range ability of the 250, but it sure seems to be doing the trick back here in PA.
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the .22-250 is known to burn out barrels quicker than most.
Say what? What web forum did you read that garbage in? The .220 swift was rumored to be a barrel burner in the "campfire talk" about 20 years ago. Today it will last as long as a 250, 243 or even the hyped up wssm's.
I didn't even see that dumb@$$ remark... who ever told you that, you need to seperate yourself from them as they don't have a clue as to what's going on in the world around them...
I'm with the "Dog" on this issue... I been shooting a 22-250 since 1972 and the same one since 1975 and the accuracy is as good today as it was when it was new... I must admit though it is a Swedish built Husquvarna on the FFV action... these rifles have always been shooters...
the 220 Swift used to have a reputation as a barrel burner, but I think a lot of that was from the hot rods pushing it to the limit with every loading... plus the fact that barrel steel has evolved since then...
unlike the "Dog" I am not so meticulous at cleaning... from the time fur season opens in October till it ends in February, nothing goes down the bore of my rifles except bullets... not taking the chance of messing something up... then a good scrubbing with patches and solvent only, no brushes here... if it gets really tough maybe a few passes with a tight patch coated well with Flitz... but seldom need that either... then through out the summer during ground hog shooting it'll get cleaned about once a month or so... just don't want to break it's streak when it's shooting good... :twisted:
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Sorry if I offended any owners of the .22-250, but barrel burnout is a reality and is caused by velocity, heat, and pressure. ANY cartridge that produces more of these factors is going to be more prone to burn out. Hunters usually won't be troubled by it, but shooters would. I was able to find a few informational items, like this statement from Guns and Ammo Magazine(Dec. 2004):
"Faster cartridges are going to wear out barrels more quickly than slower cartridges. There is no real threshold that I'm aware of, but the very fast .22s like the .22-250, .220 Swift and .223 WSSM are going to wear out barrels much faster than milder .22s like the .222 and .223."-Craig Boddington
If I'm wrong in this opinion, I have a lot of reputable company.
Obviously if you load a cartridge down below the levels for which it was designed, you'll prolong the rifle barrel's life. Then again you'll never attain the level of performance for which it was developed either. In which case you would probably be better off with a cartridge that was developed and designed for the performance level to which your loading. This is like buying a .44 mag. and then loading it down to .38 Spec. levels, it just don't make any sense.
Don.
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hello all, new here. finaly decided to join. looks like this forum will be a second home. i live and hunt in Pa. this past year have seriously gotten into predator/varmit hunting. ive been on the forever search for a fur friendly round since i hit a fox while coyote hunting this past winter. was useing my .220swift so you know what im talking about. im looking for sugestions for a fur friendly round for fox, and hard hitting enough for coyotes in normal calling range. and something i can pop chucks with in the summer cause ill be getting rid of my .220 swift real soon.
im very interested in the .19 cals that i saw someone mention in here. the .19/223 seems a little hot for fox, but perfect for coyotes, and the .19 calhoon hornet seems perfect for fox but a little light for coyotes, and long range chucks. calhoon offers one thats between those two. its the .19 badger, based on the .30 carbine. i have ordered one, will take 2 months for this custom rifle to arrive, and i hope its what i want.
just wondering what everyone else uses for fox and coyotes thats good on fur.
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a 19... never saw the first case or bullet on the shelf of any store for that caliber...
there's nothing wrong with your Swift, and you evidently reload if you're getting a 19... download the Swift make it out to what you want it to be... I'm sure someone out there has experimented with it... I know there are a lot of loads for the 22-250 using pistol powders to make them work... my partner has tried some of them and they shoot well and are extremely quiet also... and you still have a gun that'll handle all the rest of the stuff you want to do... and a lot better then a 19... them little bullets may start fast but slow quickly...
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lol, my swift is also a target model, its a real pain to carry around for calling. James Calhoon makes the .19. same calhoon as the bullets. his custom rifles are tricked out CZ 527's with pac-nor barrels. in .19 calhoon(HORNET) ,.19 badger(30 carbine), or the .19/223. i can get a 6.5lb cz527 in .19 badger from him less than a grand. or carry around my 13lb .220swift.
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Well Dog,
Maybe 1" isn't much when your talking custom rifles and handloads?? I was refering to a NEF Handi-Rifle (off the shelf) and cheap Winchester blasting ammo from Wal-mart.
Granted, I could accurize and handload this gun into sub-MOA groups also. But the $200 rilfe just doulbed in price, at least. :roll:
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Well Dog,
Maybe 1" isn't much when your talking custom rifles and handloads?? I was refering to a NEF Handi-Rifle (off the shelf) and cheap Winchester blasting ammo from Wal-mart.
Granted, I could accurize and handload this gun into sub-MOA groups also. But the $200 rilfe just doulbed in price, at least. :roll:
Tim,
I wouldn't be too sure that handloads would change anything. I tried plenty of different loads and that cheap Winchester white box 45gr. JHP ammo outshot everything I put through my H+R .223. They're hard to beat for the bucks!
Don
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yes there are definatly times when factory loads out perform reloads. i have one of those ruger compacts in .260 rem. and i cant reload anything that comes close to the .5" groups with rem accutips. so i just leave it alone.
i only want the .19 cause its different, and inharently accurate. and it fits the bill, splits the difference between the .17 rem and the .22 hornet. and im not reloading it right away. calhoon sells loaded ammo for his 3 different .19's at very reasonable prices. i think $27 or $28 a box of 50. thats factory ammo price there.
if i can do better by reloading, i get all the brass, dies,and .19 cal bullets from him or swagg down .20 cal bullets to .19. and try to load my own. but from what i hear from other .19 cal shooters i wont need to. and he garentees .5" groups from his rifles. ill take that!
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I use a Winchester Mod 70 .25 WSSM with a Hornady 75gr bullet it gets the job done
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I use a Winchester Mod 70 .25 WSSM with a Hornady 75gr bullet it gets the job done
Your lucky to have gotten that Winchester Mod. 70 when you did. You would be hard pressed to find it now that Winchester closed it's doors in New Haven, Conn.
Don