PPHA Forums
Predator Hunting => Predator Hunting => Topic started by: Buckwheat on August 31, 2007, 09:39:41 PM
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Helping your stand set up when you can.
Wind and air currents are not the same. Learning the difference might just help you a lot more then you think. Both are simple to understand if you understand the basics. Wind every body understands the wind and sent cone right? Well maybe? But how air currents are acting not ever one understands and you may be sending your sent tail off in directions you have not considered. Air currents can be running the opposite direction of the wind if air currents are heavy and the wind is not strong enough to change air currents direction. Air currents are controlled by hot and cold air, cold air is heaver then worm air and both are changing there location by hot air rising and cool air falling. It is taking place all day and night. I know everyone has seen leaves close to the forest floor just moving right to left in a constant motion, and there was no wind, that was from cold air currents. Think of air currents as water poured on top of a hill and how it will flow down the hill even when there is some wind. Think about this on your next stand.
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Ah, I see more than one person made it to Byrons seminar!! Good stuff was brought out for all of us to learn there!! Thanks for posting it for those that didn't make it.
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Chasintail
I was an hour late for his seminar, me and him must think alike.
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Air currents are something a lot of hunters don't think of. Seems like I have always hunted on ridges. Even my own property sits on a hillside, (steep). I've watched air currents for a long time.
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dreamcatcher
You and I have been a hunter/trapper long enough that you and I just think everybody know this stuff.
When I would call members about information on there renewal forms they would ask me calling and set up questions. Sometimes we would talk quit awhile about hunting. I always enjoyed talking to them about predator hunting. Actually that is one of the things I will miss. Anyhow I was talking to a pretty good PPHA caller and trapper a couple of days ago and he did not pay all that much notice to air current, actually he never gave it much thought. That is why I posted about air currents. I think there is a lot to post about on this board about stuff you and I know and take for granted. I think it is time to for you and others to think about what you know and take for granted. Most of the BOARD LURKERS membership is here trying to get information. Now that I should have a little more time and my computer stops crashing, I am going to try and post more information on hunting items I take for granted everyone knows. dreamcatcher I hope you to pick you mind for the stuff you take for granted and post it. This is were mentor program is a good thing and my offer is out there to help any one that wants my help to maybe learn a little and if hunters needs to make the trip to my house for hands on use of information, give me a call and if possible we can do that to.
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Good information. And, probably the reason I am 1 for 15 with deer season. The more I lurk the more I learn how much I do not know about the basics.
Best regards,
chalmitch
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This is a good topic. If I remember this correctly the books advise deer hunters to hunt the top of the mountain in the morning. Then go to the low lands for the afternoon.
One never thinks about predator hunting if this would also improve your chances.
Also one can compensate for hunting in the evening on top of the mountains by not getting in direct line with the sound source. Hence if the thermals are blowing down the mountain in the evening. The speaker can be aimed down the mtn but the shooter or the members of the hunt should not be anywhere near the sound source. Might even be a better time to use the electronics instead of a mouth call. Since most predators always get in direct line with the sound.
If thermals are true one should not call up the mountain and get in direct line with the speaker or sound source in the morning and no one should call down the mtn if they are getting in direct line with the speaker or sound source in the evening.
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Thermals are a different critters then air currents. Do not get them confused with air currents. Thermals are worm air currents that are rising, such as the ones buzzards sore on. Air currents are how hot and could air react, Air currents do not blow around, wind blows around. Air currents can and do flow down a hill all day and night under the right conditions. Cold air is heaver then worm air, so the first couple of inches to a couple of feet high off the ground cold air can be running down a hill even though right above the cold air worm air can be going up the hill at the same time. O-my gosh!! Two directions of air movements on a hill side at the same time not counting wind. Think of (air currents) as how oil and water reacts, water is heaver then oil. Think of water as cold air and oil as worm air. Wind and thermals are two other factors. I did not say anything about them yet.
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funny how some folks give advice to set up high to call predators, they surely buck the system 'bout thesehere thermals and their only reasoning is to see a good distance
Buckwheat, good subject.
How much time does it take for human scent thermals to travel down/up a mountain?
How far does human scent thermals travel?
How far away can a canine detect human scent thermals?
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Am sorry, Buckwheat. I used 'thermals' instead of air currents.
I was referring to air current, not thermals.
My brain was cloudy this morning.
I know how some trapping lures carry with air currents and chose my set location accordingly. Scent distribution varies due to humidity, air temperture and wind velocity...many variatables.
I would guess most archery hunters use a tree stand to elimiate human scent at ground level and rarely think about air currents but they do consider wind direction for the most part.
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This is an interesting discussion. How consistent are air currents? Are they altered easily by the terrain?
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Hern
That is correct; some archers in tree stands are concerned with the direction of the wind and some get high enough up a tree that they hardly have to worry about the wind and sent at all in some conditions. Hern, I know you know this, but for a new trapper, The trapper would be wise to consider cold air currents no matter what sent is being used at a set. A predator kept in the down side of the air current flow side of a trap location would get to his nose in the sent trail flowing from the set and draw him to your set. A predator could cross as little as 20 feet!!!! above a set location and never smell the sent at a trap set location if prevailing winds and cold air currents are flowing down hill and he crosses above a sent trail and there is no eye appeal at the set location.
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This is a great post. Keep typing, we're listening. 8)
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TrappingJohn
You know enough stuff already. I will have to wait until the next holiday to talk about worm air currents and wind. And what about using all this information and proper calling set up after all that air current and wind information. Wait it can take a life time, who has that much time. :shock:
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TrappingJohn
I will have to wait until the next holiday to talk about worm air currents and wind.
Hot air?
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Rocky, bouldery, clear blue skies, game everywhere. Didn't want to come back but heard you were being "long winded" about "hot air" and didn't want to miss a "breath".
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Buckwheat asks-
Ever notice how cold it is in the morning down low in the valley and kind of nicer up on top of the mountain.
Yes.
-So air currents happen during warming and cooling? Right? Wrong? Happening during certain times of the day? Right? Wrong?
-Ground level air currents don't move during stable tempertures? Right? Wrong?
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Hot air rises and cold air sinks. :P
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Hot air rises and cold air sinks. :P
So, lets see if i got this right. Up in your tree stand 20 feet and it's warm outside and you fart (hotair) :shock: , there'll be no smell on the ground ?? :roll: Oh wait, that must be when the air currents kick in,RIGHT ? :?
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Tracker
True, hot rises and cold air falls and everybody knows that I would hope. The problem seams hunters do not under stand how it causes air currents to flow right at ground level. If a hunter does not under stand how the air flows right on the ground there is no way for a hunter to know when a predator is heading down stream of his sent trail. Most hunters (only) consider wind when considering there sent trail and most give it little thought unless the wind is blowing over 5 mph or more.
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Hern
There are always hot and cold differences in the air. Since hot and cold air is always changing position, you tell me when you think there are air currents flowing right at ground level.
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Longhair,
I use the fart muffler. :wink:
I have a different veiw on air currents (wind), and feel on a dead calm night it would be rare that it would effect your calling. Not to mention that there are many many things that have an effect, the slightest breeze, radiation, humidity, barometic pressure, etc.
Its not very often that I'm out calling and there is NO wind.
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Tracker,
Could you give a little more detail on the "fart muffler"?? :?
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Its just like the cough muffler except for the other end.
If you have both make sure you don't get em mixed up. :shock: :lol:
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Buckwheat says-
Hern...you tell me when you think there are air currents flowing right at ground level
Naw. You are doing the talk'n. I just ask a few questions to learn. You tell us.
My father raised Beagles. So I grew up with hounds. I learn there are different scenting conditions. Wet, bone dry, dew on grass, snow, wet snow, dry snow, ice covered snow, heavy leaves, pine needles & windy conditions.
Now there are many variables with a hound trailing a rabbit. Maybe even the rabbit isn't giving off much scent to begin with.
But scenting conditions play a major role for a mediocre hound. Good hounds are hard to find. I mean a hound that can trail in most conditions.
I offend wonder how many mediocre Fox are out there. I guess not too many or they won't survive past winter.
But it's still a possibility that some Fox don't fair well during certain scenting conditions (I have no way to prove this, just another thing to think about).
Light rain to drizzle all night with a fog or slight fog...Usually not a good time to call predators because of the fog...but the critters are moving ahoy on thesehere nights...my traps prove it. Could be prime scenting conditions, no wind, lots of ground level air current.
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Here is another thing to consider.
Human scent is lighter than animal scents. That's why it's a good idea to mist or use animal scents as a cover up, as they ride lower in the air currents.
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dreamcatcher
Here is another thing to consider.
Human scent is lighter than animal scents. That's why it's a good idea to mist or use animal scents as a cover up, as they ride lower in the air currents.
Are you saying you think cover scents work?
Is there a place that I can read and get information about this statement?
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Cover scents have helped me over many years. Some may say they do nothing. I disagree.
At the least they can help to confuse and/or relax an animal.
In recent issues of Fur-Fish-Game, Leonard Lee Rue writes about Joe Taylor, a hunting guru in NJ and NY. I was blessed to spend a good amount of time with Joe at his camp in NJ. Joe taught me a lot about scents.
I can recall reading about animal scents being heavier in past issues of Deer and Deer Hunting magazine.
See you Saturday.
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question:
how many of us spend enough time at one particular calling set-up to be concerned with thermals? i mean really. i know that Buckwheat and a whole lot of you out there including me, "run & gun" while calling....drive to one spot...get out..walk in...call for 10mins..15mins tops....than back out again. barely enough time to stop and think or consider thermals....right? air currents...yes...certainly. walk into your set with the wind in your face or ccoming from one side or the other and turn for your set up how ever you choose....cross wind or down wind calling.
i can see all this talk and theories applying to deer hunting as your on stand in one location for hours....so the whole thermal idea can come into play as far as carrying your scent. but as for calling predators....i don't see how this really applies. only if your calling in an area where you know for certain a coyote is known to frequent and it's alittle bit wary or call shy....you may need to give it lots of time to approach. i've sat on stands for coyotes for 45min to an hour for a coyote that just wouldn't commit to closing inside 100yds.
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i have put in years and years of thought on deer hunting and using scents. here is what i have found out. when using a drag with doe n heat scent: If you get 100 yards away from your stand and put your scent on drag and walk to your stand and hand it on a tree 20 yards away from your stand, you just did it backwards, which i did for years. a deer trails just like a beagle, nose to the ground and from weaker scent to stronger scent. so if you want your scent to be more productive, walk to your stand first, pull out your drag and scent it up and walk 100 or 150 yards away from your stand hitting as many cross trails as possible, then pick it up and walk it back to your stand and hang it where you started.
when hanging scents next to your stand you should hang them 20 yards to the left of your stand and 20 yards to the right when standing with your back to the wind. that way when a buck hits your doe n heat line he will come in but not directly down wind of your scent. the last 4 bucks i killed came into this set, their noses were in the air, lips were curled and it was like they were on a rope. i learned a long time ago that scents are no good if they are up wind of them.
how does this apply to predator hunting: i feel, any wild animal is more comfortable being downwind of what they are looking for, so i have my caller 30 yards to the left of me, the wind at my back, i start calling and the animals hears the sound and starts coming then he hits a scent line of a bobcat, from the bobcat sent i just put by the caller, now he hears it, smells it and if i add a feather on a string by the caller for some movement. there are three things on his mind other than me.
for coyotes i use bobcat scent, for fox i use rabbit scent.
one thing i know for sure from spending many hours in a tree, a big buck is a big buck because he trusts his nose, not many deer will pick you up if your are 30 feet in a tree, but a fox will always pick you us as soon as he gets straight down wind of you and there will be no hesitation, he will turn and go the other way, he will not even look in your direction. i once heard that a person can smell stew cooking on a stovetop as soon as they walk in a room, but a dog can smell and identify all 35 ingredents ( not sure how the measure that) in the stew.
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Throw this in the mix. Are you guys talking about populated areas or unpopulated areas? Big woods or close to human habitat ? The reason I ask is people that live close to a wooded area have seen yotes and the such real close to the houses when they are outside. Now, you would think that the yotes would shy away from doing this. My point is, when you hunt closer to populated areas, they tend to get used to the human,pet, and just things in general. Hey, I'm new to this and just trying to learn something here.
Now as far as scents go, I like earth. I keep my cloths in plastic bags with some of the natural surroundings from where I hunt. If there's cattle close, I want to smell like a cow. If the farmer is active in the field with his tractor, then I want to smell like a tractor(deisel fuel). And in the rut, if I see a HOT doe taking a pee or poop, I'll roll in that sum beech !!!!!
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if I see a HOT doe taking a pee or poop, I'll roll in that sum beech !!!!!
We're using your vehicle, right? :lol:
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Scott
Good stuff there, keep the information coming.
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Paul--not to worry,I don't do this anymore. BUT, I NEVER put on my outer layer of cloths until I'm ready to go into the woods. Always keep them in a plastic bag.
Buckwheat--that's what the locals have been telling me. They see them and it is as if the yote could care less about them. He/she just proceeds on their merry way. Now this is on one side of the hill, the other side is compleately different.
I've done things hunting deer(buck) that most normal people would scoff at. You have to realize that when I was younger, I hunted THE BUCK not just a buck. And that in it's self is a hard thing to do. So now I'm starting over with coyote. But some of the same principles that apply to deer huntig also apply here.
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But when you get in there areas they are used to hanging out in were people do not disturb them they get nervous when human sent is in that area.
true,,,,
(my opinion is) I don't think it matter if Mr coyote live near you or near populated places he can tell when you to close.I am not much on fighting or worrying about the wind or air current. I have a hard time finding it constant anywhere I do try to start off with it in my face.
unpredictable currents is why I shoot them as soon as i see them :D
I am with woody on this one