PPHA Forums
Predator Hunting => Predator Hunting => Topic started by: Buckwheat on October 14, 2014, 10:31:41 PM
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I talked to my fur buyer today. He said he is still setting on fur from last year. The early fur market is unknown. Every other year he would tell me what he thinks he will pay the fist week of the season. This year he said it is unknown.
But if he had to guess it will be real low.
Good for us callers but bad for the trapper that is in it for extra cash.
h
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I hunt (call) for the enjoyment and thrill of the sport. Even if the fur was worthless, I would still be out there.
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Jake
I think you will find most callers are not in it for the fur prices.
It us just the thrill of the hunt and enough money for gass it great.
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I had a fox in the field behind my house the other evening. Just for curiosity sake, I began to lip squeak,simply to see if I could get his attention.......3 minutes later I had the red fox stareing me down at 5 paces away!!
Talking about something that was cool!! Imagine if you had a kid with you and that happened, how thrilled the kid would have been. He would have went to school the next day and told all his friends and teachers about it.
Heck, I'm 46 years old and told all my friends about it the next day.....BOTH OF THEM !!!
It's that thrill and excitement one gets that keeps you going back to the woods. The thrill of the hunt, Not the chase of the dollar.....
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Buckwheat, I think most trappers are not 'in it, for the money' or they would've quit after the fur boom in the late '70's to early 80's.
Most seasoned trappers and predator callers....I can't put into words, the best I can say... it's what the do. It's their lifestyle.
Sorta like a guy possessed with Trout fishing, Duck hunting, Turkey hunting, Golfing and so on.
It's what they do.
And as far as the few guys looking to make a few bucks on fur, they will make adjustments. By that, they will store fur until price justifies their selling. Yes, a few trappers set on fur for a few years. or They will spend more time out-of-state targeting higher price fur that isn't native/available to their state.
It's what they do...
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Hern
What I said did kind of throw all trappers in one group. That was not my intent.
I too believe there are many trappers that just enjoy trapping like any other sport.
But money does drive the market and how many will be trapping.
When I was getting $3 for fox there was no body trapping.
Now most farms have a trapper on them. When the fur prices started climbing to $18 for fox trappers started trapping again. There were at lest 15 years that there was no one in my area taking fur. But before that when prices startef setting price records there was a trapper on every farm like it is now again.
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Money does drive the market.
A few short years ago, Grey Fox were selling for $38-$42 average. Reds were selling for $12-$18 at the same time.
Predator Callers came out of the woodwork to call Greys with those high prices.
Coon and Muskrat prices advanced and that put more trappers and Coon hunters in service.
But everyone is doing it for fun.
Coyote Contests appeared years ago...that drove the market so to speak.
So you enter a BIG MONEY contest 'for the fun'? Well kiss my grits.
One good thing about those MONEY contests...it made the Coyote Hound Hunters hone their skills, because they want to win.
Buckwheat, over the years, I should have a revolving door in the shed because of so many guys stopping in and asking me how do I call Coyotes? They are going to a contest next week. They have a chance to hit the jackpot!
Other Money Contests followed and MONEY is the driving force behind them.
Sponsors make MONEY and hunters are looking for a BIG PAYDAY.
When fur prices are high, there are record number of predator callers, houndsmen and trappers.
When fur prices are low, not too many guys out there and lots of guys that have excuses not to be out there.
But everyone is in it to have fun.
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Hern
I was trying to say much of the same thing.
I know coyote contest are for money and everybody know that, but a lot of that money goes to good causes. So I really gave no feelings one way or the other on them.
I will say this that during the last lull in fur prices the coyotes spread and got a foot hold in a lot more places really fast. Even with all the current pressure they are still expanding.
During the last lull there were very few callers. This time it will be interesting.
Now there is a whole army of predator callers in PA. This was never the case before.
It will be interesting to see how this calling sport reacts to fur price. They my react the same as trappers.
Low fur prices and with the coyote here in fair numders already could be the start of coyote explosion everyone fears.
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Ernie,
I think the explosion has already occurred. Its only going to get worse and most likely out of control. I've already said that in 5 years, seeing coyotes will be a normal thing like seeing deer/ Especially in urbanized areas where hunting them is almost impossible.
You know its bad when they are getting hit on the highways now. Just had one a few months ago hit on Rt 30 at the Wrightsville exit. And that wasn't the first one....
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Misterjake23
I watched the coyotes move in during the last fur price drop.
The thing that might keep it slowed up is redfox and coyotes prices are still holding up better then the rest of the fur market.
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I don't think fur prices are responsible for any significant changes in the coyote population.
They are a incredibly resilient animal that only mother nature can control IMO.
Look at the bounties and government projects out west, put in place to eradicate the coyote.
Helicopter shooting, and that bait that exploded poison into the coyotes mouth when they bit it, couldn't even do the trick.
But we do what we can as trappers and callers, to keep the populations in check.
Also, most of the talk of fur prices are just what we tell our wives so they would leave us alone some during the season.
If they think you're making money to cover bills or pay for dinner out by trapping and calling, they're usually on board.
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Buckwheat, The Coyotes are here, been here.
You folks in the southern tier of Pa. have great Red Fox populations.
The Coyote invasion you are fearing has been happening slowly in the southern tier.
Why? Less habitat? Too many Reds (competition)?
I have had reports of pockets of Coyotes in the southern tier.
They may expand from there. Time will tell.
I don't see a sudden appearance or blanketing of Coyote throughout the southern tier. It will take time, as it did in my area.
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Leglifter
I only think the part they are resilient is true.
Were they shot off coyotes from the air and poison them it did keep them out of those areas for a wile. But they filtered back in these shot off places when there was nothing to control them from comming back in.
I kind of think of them as cock roaches in a city environment. If the house beside yours has roaches it will not be long until you have them. If you do not spray your house when the first one shows up you will be over run. I happen to think all the hunting and trapping has been slowing therr spread down very good. Not that they have not continued to spread but at a lot slower pace because of trapping and hunting.
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Hern
I know coyotes are in pockets in the south east.
But the places they have been were hunting and trapping is allowed they have been killed off or slowed down as they show up.
In areas were you can not trap or shoot them they are still there trying to spead out every year.
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Judd Cooney is a top notch outdoorsmen, trapper, predator caller, Deer hunter and guide.
He stated-
A study done a few years back concluded local Coyote population needs reduced by 70% for five consecutive years to make any real dent in the numbers.
More than enough pups are whelped each spring to fill the area's holding capacity.
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Hern
What happens in an area when they are all killed in the first year?
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I must be the dummy here but how would anyone known that they were all killed off with coydogs and all?? ??? ??? ??? ???
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Pa goosehntr
Well let me start off by saying if you know an area like the back of your hand you can figure out pretty much what goes on.
I scout my areas pretty good and have hunted and known all the land owners for over 40 years.
Late season scouting when there is snow on the ground and talking to the land owners can give you a pretty good read on what going on.
There were 3 locations coyotes moved into were I hunt and talking to the farmers on who and what is taken off the property gives a good starting point. Then to walk the areas in the snow will confirm if the fatmer thinks they were all gotten.
These areas were they have been cleaned out and 2 years later there still is no sign will let you know if they are gone.
The area I live farms do not have much woods. A 100 aker wood lot is huge here.
If I lived any place else it would be hard to make these statements.
These discussions about coyote are just opinions from me a guy that eats and sleeps hunting.
Feel free to believe what you want. But this is why I say stuff is to just get people thinking and not taking everything as fact. You have the ability to take this information any way you would like.
But some might think these statements are worth wile and in some way help make them just a little smarter and better hunter.
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Ernie...Not looking for an argument but...those young critters get kicked out on their own and you never know who's door they are gonna show up at...they are opportunist and will take advantage of what and where they can. Habitat and food are required, and if not readily available they will keep truckin...but they do pass through from time to time...
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What happens in an area when they are all killed in the first year?
I'm not a biologist. Maybe you can find a study answering or supporting your questions.
First off, if only a handful of Coyote occupy an area, trapped and hunted hard, maybe they could be killed off here in Pennsylvania. (are we talking Pa.?)
My opinion, if there is a population void, cover and prey available, then that void will be filled. When? I have no clue.
What I have observed as a trapper and predator caller...
In the past 30 years here in Pa., it appears Coyote population has exploded off and on in some areas of the state. By that, first Coyotes gained a foothold and establish themselves in 'prime Coyote habitat'. As population densities grew, so did the Coyote range. Slowly Coyotes filled pockets of 'Coyote habitat' elsewhere in our state. As Coyote population grew in the next area, carrying capacity or high density population permitted more Coyotes to move to more Coyote habitat throughout the our state.
I've been hearing about 'the Coyote explosion' for 30 years, Buckwheat. It's nothing new. If the carrying capacity is high in one area, Some Coyotes in that area will move on. If Coyotes move to your neck of the woods, you have some habitat that will support their needs. It's as simple as that.
So why haven't Coyotes move to your area years ago and establish a foothold?
Because the Coyote explosion in the northern tier stayed in the northern tier, Appalachian Mt. chain and the Rt. 80 corridor. The best habitat for that critter.
At some point when carrying capacity expands up north, Coyotes are drifting south and setting up home range suitable habitat in the southern tier of our state.
I don't feel it's an explosion, but slow natural occurrence of expansion.
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Pa Goosehntr
I understand there dispersal to some degree. But only what has been written in study's. Personally I think they needs to do a study in the east. New York, Pa and Virginia.
But what I am saying the coyotes were all killed and there was no dispersal. If there was a dispersal nothing ever came back and no new coyotes ever cam in to inhabit the area again.
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Hern
I understand the coyotes dispersal the same as you.
I am saying we need more information. Example. Pa game commission has done hundreds of studys on deer and they still learn stuff and come up with new ideas. We have done no real study's on the Pa. Coyotes but every body thinks they know them by hart. It's amazing we have so many people that think there knolage on coyotes are facts and have to be correct.
I say my statments are as good as the next guys.
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Low fur prices and with the coyote here in fair numders already could be the start of coyote explosion everyone fears.
Back to my first statment.
Matter of facts, you might want to take all my statments as facts on coyotes because of my studys. LOL
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Buckwheat, what low fur prices are you talking about?
From my reading several fur reports and talking with three fur buyers the only fur that will be low at the start of this season is Mink and a notable drop in Coon, both saw decreasing prices at the end of last season. We knew the bubble had to burst. Some speculators predict $10-$12 Muskrat but historically 'Rat prices drop when Mink prices fall...time will tell if South Koreans will continue to buy 'Rats.
Gary Schroeder, fur market reporter, says Coyote, extra pale with white bellies of the west, range from $80-$100, Some other western states, prices $35-$45, big heavy, Northeastern Coyote (coywolves as they are now being called), prices will move at $50-$60 and semiheavy at $25-$35
Red Fox, heavy to semiheavy will open at $30-$40
Grey Fox will open at $15-$20
Note here, prices I'm quoting are well furred, well put up hides. Don't expect these prices when selling in the round or green or early or damaged put up fur.
About your concerns that nobody will stop the Coyote explosion with low fur prices this year....
I don't know of any Canine trapper or predator caller planning to stay home or reduce his line. Prices will be good for Coyote and Reds, Canines will be marketable.
I can see the Mink and Coon guys backing off, but they will trap, because that's what they do.
That's what I'm reading and seeing right now, Buckwheat, and basing my plans . Who know what will happen by the end of the season in this market.
Many country buyers were beat up last year. By that, Mink and Coon prices dropped toward the middle-end of last season.
By that time, Country buyers had already laid out large amounts of cash to buy Mink and Coon, then the bottom dropped before they sold these pelts.
They lost money on these items and will be very hesitant to buy Mink and Coon this season, but they will buy, but at a reduced rate.
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Buckwheat says-
It's amazing we have so many people that think their knowledge on coyotes are facts and have to be correct.
Am sorry I came across that way.
I try to post and reply from my personal observations and experiences through trapping, Coyote calling and scouting.
Arnie Hayden, PGC Biologist, did a Coyote study. I think in the '90's.
Dick Hildagrass trapped Coyotes for Arnie. Radio collars were then placed on Coyotes so to monitor movement and released at same spot.
Maybe you could contact the PGC or PGC Biologists Matt Lavello or Tom Hardisky, for Arnie's Pennsylvania Coyote Study.
I also would like to see an undated Pennsylvania Coyote Study.
Ten years ago or more, I contacted the PGC about the low numbers of Weasels. I ask if they would do a study. Answer, no funds available.
Four years ago, I ask the PGC to do a study on our low and declining Muskrat population. Answer, no funds available.
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Buckwheat says-
It's amazing we have so many people that think their knowledge on coyotes are facts and have to be correct.
Am sorry I came across that way.
I thought Buckwheat was referring to himself ;D ;D ;D
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Hern
These early season buy prices you are talking about is that at local buyers or north ameriaian fur trading.
I am not sure what market price could hinder out west only here. I also am only talking about red fox and gray fox. Water trappers do not affect coyote numbers.
Gray fox are getting close to that point but red fox and coyote prices will still keep the trappers and callers out there.
I think if red fox ever hits the current redfox prices things will slow up on trapping. I still am not sure what it will take for callers to slow up. Since there is not much work to calling like there is running a trap line every day.
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Leglifter
Nobody cam across that way. You are my friend and I would have call you if I was upset. Everybody is just stating what they think are facts including me. My piont is there are no facts. Only people that think they know the facts from hearing misinformation with some facts mixed in and repeated so many times on the internet.
Hern
Getting a study on coyotes the way coyotes are hated would be a hard sell. They still need to do 25 more study's on deer.
Remember deer is what makes the money. It is hard to get funds fir other projects. Pluse it require real work. The PGC is big on using parts of studys from all over the place. Real field leg work from people that like there work that much could be hard to find anymore.
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These prices are reports from national publications.
Not from local buyers.
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Leglifter
Nobody cam across that way. You are my friend and I would have call you if I was upset. Everybody is just stating what they think are facts including me. My piont is there are no facts. Only people that think they know the facts from hearing misinformation with some facts mixed in and repeated so many times on the internet.
That's exactly what I was getting at,(we've had this discussion before)
There are no solid gospel "facts" in MY OPINION.
What one hunter or trapper experiences may be the total opposite of what another experienced. And the guy who witnessed a certain behavior thinks that "that always happens in that situation"
I feel those animals ( and us humans) are just blowing in the wind like forest gump. And each one can field their situations in different ways. It may be a result of that animals passed experience, a taught behavior by parents or siblings, or a different perception of instinct by that animal that changes these "facts" from one animal to the next.
We all like these discussions.
I was just poking fun at you a bit because I've seen your thoughts change on matters over the years.
And they should to a point, we can't be so gullible to think we know it all, because when you think that way, your'e not open to learning anything new.
Theories change because situations change.
I wise man once told me that "if you don't learn something new everyday, you weren't paying attention.
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Leglifter
Very well said. I find out most of the times after I study things about animals for an particular answer I just find more questions. Then I find out there is no real information to answer even my first question and I am left with more questions.
Then comes along some idiot to confuse me even more. LOL