PPHA Forums
Predator Hunting => Predator Biology => Topic started by: uncle buck on December 25, 2010, 06:42:02 PM
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Things that hunters talk about predator hunting that is hear say or not proven.. If I could Only See Into A Eastern Coyotes Brain!!!!!
I have one for comment?
In populated areas in the East coyotes.... We had discussion on our Eastern Coyotes...That in the daytime their core area might be deep back into the mountains or boonies... However once night falls they come down off that mountain and go into the cities below and work the garbage cans, eat the cats, and feed.
What do you hunters think about this?
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We posted about this one years back.... One of the well known predator callers that I have the up most respect for said:
Coyotes don't like mud...They don't like to venture in muddy areas..
Yet I have seen coyote in leg hold traps and they are muddier then ever in that trap.
What do you think...Will a coyote divert and come to your call from another approach area or come across a muddy field to your calling?
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Another.....Coyotes fear vehicles that stop for long periods of time or park after coming down old logging roads and high tail it! Now what you should do is have your hunter or hunters get out of the vehicle and the driver continues on way out of the targeted area so the coyote thinks the vehicle is just passing through and not a threat!!!!??? True or BS?
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I don't believe in core areas
The muddy coyotes in traps are usually muddy from the mud they make fighting the trap,
I don't think they like muddy trails and will travel others if they have the choice.
I do believe that if the vehicle keeps going they will feel more at ease when they hear it is far enough away.
A friend of mine experimented with this on a 4 wheeler, after he drove the 4 wheeler out of the field and out of ear shot,
he would park it and sneak back to the field to see the predators back out mousing
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Leglifter
I don't believe in core areas
Can I hear why you think this. I think all animals have core areas. Heck! I even have one. I do not mean the refrigerator either, but I get shot there pretty easy.
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I do believe in Core areas too.. But once the food runs out they find other core areas.. Like I said before... Now that the regular deer season is over. If you find out where the deer are cored up the coyotes will be there too...I don't think they get to kill all the deer but they sure enough try too...
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There is an instance right there, like UB said.
How can you say coyotes have a certain core area where they spend 80% of their time?
Especially when no one knows a coyotes exact home range and what areas within that range, give that coyote no reason to be there.
Then theres the whole deer yard aspect where the predators follow the flocks and herds of prey, are these areas core areas of the prey or the predator?
If an animals "core" area changes from week to week,month to month,and even year to year, how can you say that they have a certain area where they spend 80% of their time?
I think a home range is a home range, and that left over 20% of the range is just unproductive, pressured, or unsafe areas of that range.
Also an animals range is a living,constantly changing thing, crops get cut,acorns fall and rot, water sources freeze.
You'd have to be a coyote to fully understand what goes on in their lives.
Of course this is my own opinion
Does anyone have any "core area" documented studies that I can change my mind by reading,
or try to shoot down?
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Here you go,
check this out from the study Dave Dunbar was involved with.
I know Dave believes in core areas, and I hope my beliefs don't upset anyone.
http://www.theconservationagency.org/coyote.htm
Note that the areas that have the least amount of tracking hits are highly human populated.
Also the sparse hits around the human populated areas, don't they look like funnel ways, or travel routes through
these populated areas to get to better hunting or bedding grounds?
I believe the location of this study is not the particular type of area, we as hunters, are frequenting,
there seems to be an awful lot of coyotes there in such a small island.
I'm looking at the last gps hit map on the page and every different color is a member of a certain pack,
I don't know how many animals per pack.
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LEGLIFTER
O -YEA. I am so upset that I am eating my second pretzel already.
Finally some one has an opinion, well maybe?
I hope no one gets upset. :>)
I only went to 3 sites and they talk core area.
This could turn out to be an interesting topic. Maybe we all can learn something if we keep an open mind and really learn about pa coyotes. I currently believe there are no experts on the pa coyote. Maybe some in the PGC have good data but not good enough to hunt them. But we should the leaders like it or not. I think we are just scratching the surface. Once most people think they know enough you stop learning.
Mississippi study
We estimated 60 seasonal home ranges and core areas for 18 adult coyotes (10 male, 8 females) from 1993-97. Home range size did not differ across seasons (P = 0.681), but did between sexes (P = 0.006) with females maintaining larger home ranges. Similarly, core area size did not differ across seasons (P = 0.736), but did between sexes (P = 0.001) with females maintaining larger core areas
A common observation in animal space use studies is that animals do not use space uniformly, but rather use some areas of their home ranges and territories with much higher intensity than others. Numerous methods have been developed to estimate these "core areas"; however, all of the current methods available are based on arbitrary rules. Additionally, most studies do not attempt to understand what behavioral processes lead to the observed patterns of non-uniform space use. This study has four main objectives: 1) to develop an objective and more precise method for estimating core areas, 2) to understand the processes leading to unequal coyote capture probabilities across territories, 3) to understand the biological mechanisms that influence the location of bobcat core areas, and 4) to determine how differences in territory size affect coyote movement patterns. The core area estimation method I developed consistently performed better than methods using arbitrary values to define core areas. Using this method to estimate coyote core areas, I determined that coyote capture locations were not actually biased towards low use areas because of low familiarity with those areas, but rather because of a higher probability of encountering traps there. Intensity of coyote use did, however, influence the location of bobcat core areas. When prey abundance was high, bobcat core areas were located in areas of low coyote use but occurred in areas of high coyote use when prey abundance was low, indicating bobcat core areas are the result of at least two processes: foraging conditions and avoidance of intraguild predation. Lastly, coyote movement behavior changed significantly as territory size increased, leading to faster and straighter movement patterns. However, even though coyotes in larger territories moved twice as fast as those in small territories, they took significantly longer to traverse their territories compared to those in small territories. This might be the result of coyotes occupying large territories being less constrai
ned by defense due to lower conspecific density compared to coyotes occupying small territories. Overall, my research reveals the importance of using more precise methods to delineate animal space use patterns, and the greater information researchers can obtain when they attempt to understand the processes underlying space use patterns.
Abstract: Interspecific competition among canids can result in mortalities and spatial displacement of smaller canids
by larger canids. To investigate mortalities and spatial relationships of swift foxes (Vulpes velox) and coyotes (Canis
latrans), we captured and radio-tracked both species at Rita Blanca National Grasslands in northwestern Texas. At least
89% of swift fox mortalities were caused by coyotes, resulting in a relatively low annual survival of 0.47 for swift
foxes. Annual home ranges of swift foxes occurred near the periphery and outside coyote home ranges, and did not
overlap or only slightly overlapped coyote core areas. Thirty-three of 36 known swift fox dens occurred outside coyote
core areas. When swift foxes established dens within coyote core areas (n = 3), they were killed by coyotes shortly
thereafter. Our data indicated that spatial displacement of swift foxes was not due to behavioral avoidance of coyotes
but rather to increased killing of swift foxes within coyote core areas. Most mortalities caused by coyotes occurred in
the immediate vicinity of swift fox dens, suggesting that coyotes made an active effort to kill swift foxes
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Give me some time to comprehend this,
I already see contradictions
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Before we go further, Buckwheat,
what is your opinion on the core area conspiracy?
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Leglifter
That is the point, core areas are core areas but they do move around I think? What do you guy think? I have been doing this predator hunting for a long time and not trying to sound smart but there is a lot of stuff out there that is only half truths and people think it is fact. People have been only hunting coyotes in pa for only a couple of years and I know a lot of them personally. Even the guys that people think are experts might still be wet behind the ears. They kill one or two coyotes or stumble into some at one time and then use that information as the rule and tell others it is the way to do it from that day forward. Then all of a sudden some one seam to know all the habit's and in and outs of the coyotes daily life and pass that on. I have fell into this trap a bunch of times myself and cost me a lot of lost time in the field hunting coyotes were there were none early on. Today I still know nothing about coyotes except to hunt them if they are were I am hunting.
First facts, if you have a lot of coyote tracks, fresh scat, see coyotes in the day time out hunting for food all the time you are in a core area. The hunter’s odds of calling in a coyote and killing one goes way up. If that hunter only kills just one or two it does not make him an expert, it makes a hunter with a target rich environment. However in time with that kind of hunting he will get knowledge of how to kill them in that area.
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Hunting coyotes in most cases in Pa is luck unless you see the animals in an area or find tracks. There is a huge difference in hunting coyotes here in Pa vs Texas or Wyoming. Anyone with reasonable talent with a hand call or using a e caller can call coyotes out west. It's just a game of numbers. There is far more coyotes out west. As far as core areas I believe coyotes will stay in areas were food is unless it's mating season. I have hunted in pa this year 15 times and called in 3 coyotes without a kill. There tough here in Pa. Another reason coyotes kills are higher out west like Wyoming the cover is more open thus you can see the animal coming further. Not so here in Pa. I honestly feel that the coyote population will grow big time in our state due to the dense undergrowth.
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Earl
I miss Texas and it is cold here too. lol
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Ernie, you know I don't think I am any kind of expert or authority on anything,
I'd like this discussion to be centered around the behavioral aspect of the coyotes daily and nightly habits in the way it uses its surroundings to survive.
You say core areas are core areas but they move around( I agree) so why even call them "core areas".
I agree that some people stumble on scenarios that result in a harvest and think"thats the way it always is"
I say that these scenarios change constantly with every passing minute.
Kind of like the butterfly effect.
Here's an example:
Ernie gets pretzel crumbs on the key board
His wife complains
He figures "heck on this abuse, I'm going hunting"
Ernie goes to a cut corn field with brushy edges to call.( lone coyote tracks there alot)
No eyes so he leaves.
an hour goes by and a coyote makes its way to this spot to hunt.
On its way there the coyote comes up to Ernies tracks( and trail of pretzel crumbs)in the snow
The coyote gets spooky and leaves
It travels through a creek bed for a mile and finds that a deer was hit by a car and died of internal injuries.
The coyote feeds from this deer for a few days, bedding close,it has water from the creek.
Ernie goes back to the cut corn field the next few days to find no more lone coyote tracks.
Now, when the coyote was feeding on the deer, was that his core area?
was the cut corn field its core area?
If Ernie would not have got pretzel crumbs on the key board would the coyote find the roadkilled deer?
The point being that, in an ever changing world everything is effected.
There are no constants
We can only make the best of our odds by the laws of probability.
Sure, the more scouting and observing we do, the more scenarios we find that might make us successful.
You got to be out there in the game.
Again, my opinion
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Buckwheat it's 75 in Texas and Pete said it's loaded with coyotes and bobcats this year. I forgot remember the night we called in 5 bobcats. Thinking about going again?
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We need a good trapper in this discussion,
Renny? Hern? where yat?
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The heck with pretzels.......Bob, what flavor are you indulging in this evening ?? You're make'n me thirsty just think'n about the "home brew". ;D
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Waiting for the wind to die down so I can go out and play.... ;D
I believe in core areas, dispersal, and filling voids.....
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foxpro51
I am always thinking about going but do not think that is going to happen this year.
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The heck with pretzels.......Bob, what flavor are you indulging in this evening ?? You're make'n me thirsty just think'n about the "home brew". ;D
Not a drop tonight George
Renny, its windy here too, I'm waiting for the warm spell at the end of this week.
Renny please elaborate on your thoughts of core areas
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Concerning mud -- in my experience -- a fox will not step in a stepdown set filled with water as readily as a coyote will.
I don't want a warm up.........GRRRRRRRRRRR!!!
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I was referring to travel trails more than hunting formations when I said that about muddy trails
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In the fall in my part of PA it seems like its all mud. How can they avoid it?
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maybe stay on higher ground, or off the beat down muddy trails
what else you got on core areas?
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Lots of theories... I believe every situation is different. Your post summed it up well.
That link you posted is neat... A pegleg bitch rearing pups.....
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A 36 # male coyote less than a year old.....
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If any one has google earth installed, go to where the named coyotes are with the google earth icons beside them
right click on the icon and save image as.. desktop
then go to your desktop and open it, you can then zoom down on the hit markers for detail
http://www.theconservationagency.org/coyote.htm
I found 2 coyotes in a field, must have been running with clyde.
40 degrees 30'07.18"N
71degrees14'53.49"W
Isn't technology grand!!!
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I found out that there is an app for your Ipod
where you can access satellite thermal imagery, in real time, and actually see yourself in the dark hunting.
Also you can see thermal imagery of any warm blooded animal that is in your spot your hunting
and monitor its movements as you call.
It also has an image recognizing feature that will scan the entire state if you please and show you where the coyotes are
at this very second, in any area you're thinking about hunting.
This will make it really easy to choose what spots you want to hunt.
Just hunt where the coyotes are!!
Just type in "wild canine" and the program will recognize any top view image of what a wild canine looks like( thats not in a pen or on a leash) in a given area and zoom right in on it.
Then just go after them.
Bonus!!!! there is an upgrade where you can access the satellites weapon system ( click to choose a caliber)
and actually shoot the critter from your couch and just go pick it up in the morning, when its daylight.
....... I hope nobody fell for that(Tim, DJ) but
I wonder how far into the future will this be a possibility
And also will it be as fun as the way we hunt now ?
Just goes to show, that most of the fun is in the chase
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Still windy as heck.......
I think there are many factors that determine how far a coyote will travel.
Heres a few:
* Time of year (all of them are related to this IMO)
*Weather
*Pressure
*Food and water availability
*Cover and terrain
*Age and health
As I've said before on here... I think there are different types of coyotes and coyote behavior that affect their everyday actions.. ie aggressive vs submissive.
I'm no pro, just a regular (at least I think so ;D) fella with some opinions.
Theres a book that I believe Slim Petersen wrote that goes through the walks of life for a pair of coyotes. Maybe Hern or someone else can help with the title. A differeny book but kind of neat.....
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Interesting subject. I do not know if I believe in core areas or not. I do believe that if an animal is pressured it will travel to another area that has good habitat. a core area however can be anything really though and I think it is more along the lines of being misused then anything. I think bob is on track with it though. Anything can spend a lot of time in one area and then move on for various reasons. they could stay for a year or less then a few days. pressure, food, weather can make them pick up and move anywhere. The scenario that bob came up with I believe is more reality then anything.
all I know is the only times I have called one in is when I found an area that was obviously an area they were working a lot. could be a core area for the moment but they would move on. but sometimes they would move on without me calling so I figured they moved to greener pastures then with better habitat.
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I enjoyed the video that Dave D u n b a r put on a few web sites. It lasted an hour and I watched it..I wish I could find that video again and comprehend more of it....See the young Dr... she spoke in the video of Coyote core areas... They are always around water and or swamp areas.
So based on her knowledge she claims that coyote core areas will be around water....
First off....deer......you find the deer after Christmas now and your going to probably call in coyotes...
Travel routes... Many of the areas I do find them are near railroads and waterways... Some of the major streams and rivers of Pa....Streams can be up to 3 to 4 miles away...
Recently this year...It has been when using the woodpecker sound for fox that the coyotes get vocal and then I go right to the coyote calling scenario that I use.. I would like to watch that video again...Now grant you....it's a 1 hour video.. But see it's people that will sit and watch things like this on the tube for 1 hour that learn a few things..Bits and pieces of things like...If you feed coyotes Caron such as dead sheep.. You throw them out on a pile on some farm.. What your doing is making those coyote sheep killers.
Yep!!!Wind Stop!!!I want to give E. W. Rest A Real Work Out!!! Also the XLR 250 Kill Light Too!!!
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Hunting coyotes in most cases in Pa is luck unless you see the animals in an area or find tracks. There is a huge difference in hunting coyotes here in Pa vs Texas or Wyoming. Anyone with reasonable talent with a hand call or using a e caller can call coyotes out west. It's just a game of numbers. There is far more coyotes out west. As far as core areas I believe coyotes will stay in areas were food is unless it's mating season. I have hunted in pa this year 15 times and called in 3 coyotes without a kill. There tough here in Pa. Another reason coyotes kills are higher out west like Wyoming the cover is more open thus you can see the animal coming further. Not so here in Pa. I honestly feel that the coyote population will grow big time in our state due to the dense undergrowth.
If you guys yanked their chain more you would see it's not tough to call them in..If they are there and you play with their brain they are going to come in...
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Theres a book that I believe Slim Petersen wrote that goes through the walks of life for a pair of coyotes. Maybe Hern or someone else can help with the title. A differeny book but kind of neat.....
Life of a coyote and its survival in the wild--slim pedersen
I read it and loved it
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What about core areas in breeding season?
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I think its the same deal,
but shouldn't we call it a denning area?
If she has multiple den sites ready before the breeding season, she can still move the den
to less pressured areas.
I don't think a den site will move due to lack of food though,
I think the hunting male and others will just travel further to get the groceries
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I was wondering about that as well renny. There was a pack of coyotes on the neighboring farm that had pups for three years. Every late jan-feb they moved onto the farm or at least made their presence known. Then they would have pups and around september they dispersed. I never seen very much sign after dispersal happened. but they haven't been around for the past two years either. So I am thinking they found better ground to den in.
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But are there boundaries they wont cross? ie. enter anothers "core" area...... in denning season I mean...
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I would think when the Horns hit...They move around quite a bit.. let say Jan...Once they pair up they would stay in a Core Area.. I would think they would be real vunerable to other coyote vocalization once they pair up...
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Insert Quote
Do you guys think coyotes have a core area in breeding season?
That is a given, they even use the same den sites if they can year after year. They will have more then one den site in there core area though.
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I think if food is scarce enough, the hunters will move into a neighbors denning area for food.
But they are extremely territorial and aggressive to these trespassers
Like people, the closer you are to home the braver you are
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Then there is that theory....That they have to eat constant in the winter to give them energy..Unlike a red fox that will go and lay on top of the hill and snooze.. Coyotes they say can be called in the daytime to since they need energy.. However I have luck using coyote vocalizations mingled with food sounds in the Jan Feb time frame... In other words calling coyotes like you would call fox...Constant in some instances using the same food sounds for 30 minutes does not work... If they need the energy you would think they would come to only food sounds then...IMO they don't. The young and greenies will come to the food sounds in Sept...
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Unclebuck
The adults are already paired up. The young pups are the ones looking for a mate and a home.
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Then there is that theory....That they have to eat constant in the winter to give them energy..Unlike a red fox that will go and lay on top of the hill and snooze.. Coyotes they say can be called in the daytime to since they need energy.. However I have luck using coyote vocalizations mingled with food sounds in the Jan Feb time frame... In other words calling coyotes like you would call fox...Constant in some instances using the same food sounds for 30 minutes does not work... If they need the energy you would think they would come to only food sounds then...IMO they don't. The young and greenies will come to the food sounds in Sept...
True story:
We laid down 45 minutes of different prey distress, finished with an interrogation howl
and had coyotes light up 200yards away and cross an open cut field to our location 5 minutes later,
This happen at 9:30 am
the mated pair came in, female was 36 pounds male was much bigger(I missed)
This was in Febuary
The distress didn't work
the coyote vocals did,and almost instantly
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Unclebuck
The adults are already paired up. The young pups are the ones looking for a mate and a home.
Paired up!!! You might be correct... I have been calling in more then one at a time this year....This was in November...
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How would you guys define the phrase "paired up"?
surely, coyotes are not solitary before mating season, correct?
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So where do they go when not in denning seaon? Nomad? What about dispersal? They have to end up somewhere....... and if they return to the same areas arent these "core" areas?
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I see alot of single coyotes throughout the year actually the majority of the time. paired up = mated pair.... not family units in my book.
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So where do they go when not in denning seaon?I think they run their normal home range and fringes of others Nomad? Maybe the younger males are What about dispersal? I think the younger males disperse the most, and will go till they find a gap to fill They have to end up somewhere....... and if they return to the same areas arent these "core" areas?If these "same areas" are subject to change, why do we call them "core"? aren't they just the best areas that they can find for now?
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I see alot of single coyotes throughout the year actually the majority of the time. paired up = mated pair.... not family units in my book.
Do you think a pair that will mate this febuary will still be hunting together in August?
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" paired up = mated pair.... not family units in my book."
Wait a minute,
me and my wife are a mated pair, and she IS in my family unit
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LOL...You have litters too? J/K I mean paired up = alpha m + f. not the whole fam damily. What do your mean by paired up UB?
Do you think a pair that will mate this febuary will still be hunting together in August?
Most of the time.... no.
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I want to make it clear that I respect EVERYONES opinion
I just like to throw in things that I have personally seen, to show you why my opinion is sometimes different.
I have seen tracks of a single coyote, working the east side of a thicket
and another set of a single working just inside the west side of the same thicket.
maybe the one in the thicket would stir the prey up and get the scent up in the air
and the one on the outside of the thicket would be the poster, so to speak.
Maybe this is why some only see the one coyote.
Also, I've seen 4 coyotes leaving a golden rod field, just after sun up, single file, the day after Christmas,
headed into really thick cover on a southern exposed hillside.
Out of these 4 coyotes, that time of year, what was each coyotes family role?
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The young are dispersed in Sept...They travel the river banks of our major water system and even the railroads from Point A to Point B..
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LOL...You have litters too? J/K I mean paired up = alpha m + f. not the whole fam damily. What do your mean by paired up UB?
Do you think a pair that will mate this febuary will still be hunting together in August?
Most of the time.... no.
So do you think the alpha m+f split up?
Disperse to different ranges?
Why will they not stay together?
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The young are dispersed in Sept...They travel the river banks of our major water system and even the railroads from Point A to Point B..
UB do you think the young males and females disperse evenly at the same rate ( all young disperse)?
Do you think they only travel major river beds and railroads?
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I don't think they all travel the river beds and railroads.. However it sure is a safe way to go from Point A to Point B... I think this is how all the bear get into populated areas without getting killed by cars too..
As far a young male and female dispersal? Remember now... many of our coyotes have wolf genes. Could it be that we keep thinking of them as the coyote out West and their family units are that of like a wolf pack.. Look at the NH study...I think the young lady doctor tracks them and they are living as a group or pack..
When I speak of Pairing Up...I was thinking more on the line how red fox pair up..Again are the Pa coyotes more like the wolf instead of the coyote out west and do hang out in Packs..
This year when calling fox and using the woodpecker sound...Twice now in two different area of SCPA... They ...the coyotes responded with howls... One howl being high pitched the other lower pitched.. I knew it was at least two coyotes both times..
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If it was all set in stone and easy there would be no reason to even have this discussion.. or forum for that matter.
Again... I think every scenerio is different as is every coyote and thats what makes them so interesting.
I've had a coyote in a trap many many times and know for a fact there was no others around because of sign in snow. I can take a part of that coyote and catch another in the same set or one nearby within a night or two and often it is one of the opposite sex. This is usually in late fall or winter. Is it the mate? idk. but its easy to assume it is. If it only takes that short amount of time for a coyote to find its presumed mates spot where it took its last breath it sure wasn't far, but I'm positive it wasn't with it either.
This is where I think coyote vocalization plays a huge roll to the predator hunter........
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Remember this...When you get busted by a coyote...They will start barking at you...The best thing to get them to come to you then is to hit them with the coyote pup. I don't care if it's Feb....Many times I get them to come back...Do the pup...be it with an open reed call or on electronics. Play it or do the coyote pup for about a good minute and then shot up...However get ready!!!!!!!Hence coyote vocalization like Renny said is deadly....
PS. KIYI works too..It's your call...Maybe give them both but not together wait 8 minutes in between...Both should be done for 1 minute and then silence!!!!!!
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Ub
I don't think they always bark when they bust you.
wait 8 minutes?
both should be done for 1 minute then silence?
That is too specific for me.
I don't even wear a watch.
I don't believe anything is gospel, especially my own opinions.
Maybe the only "definite" in a coyotes behavior is that nothing is definate
No offense intended
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No I understand...However when your telling people to do something to call them in you almost have to give them like a flow chart or Procedure... You know the government they always say "That They Did or Did not Follow Procedure!" Sometimes I might do it 5 minutes, Sometime I might do back to back KIYI and Pups too....I'm hopping that when people see some of this stuff that they at least try it....
I was just talking to a member the other day...I said...I bet people don't even do any of the recommendations on here... Just human nature..They do what they want...However should they fail they might remember a post on here and then try it.
I...for one have done well calling in coyotes by treating them like we are mammals...What po's a man will Po a coyote and all mammals..even though we have a far superior brain.. Hence all my tactics are were I try to play with their brain...Recently on a hunt...I saw my 49Th coyote show up to yanking type calling.. Actually it showed himself when the gray fox pup was being player toward the end of the calling.. Still kind of like a set calling scenario. You know again the flow chartor a written procedure one should follow. Prior to stop calling I will always use the JS GFP sound at the end of my calling sequence when I'm calling fox...Lately coyotes have been showing themselves...
Recently a member was so kind to send me a research paper on coyotes...Just reading it ....wow 200 pages....I could see how Alpha's were not like the other coyotes in the pack....Yep you sure have to yank an alpha male or females chain.. However they are the ones that are most vulnerable to coyote vocalization...Also for example did you know that alphas are the one that truly kill the livestock (sheep) and not the Beta or bravos???
So much to learn from the Biologist out there too and not just coyote hunters. some of the info you can take or leave it..However you keep it in the back of your head and if you see it happening and then you use it.
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I think that is the problem though. too many people think it is about this sound or that sound or they need to do it for this many exact minutes. The biggest teacher is experience and no one can gain that from reading. They need to get out and hunt and gain that experience to become better at calling animals in. the basics are just that basic. it is the stuff you learn from the net or read from magazines or watch on TV. There are too many situations while calling to throw exact time frames down or even exact sounds down. experience will tell you when to do certain things or to make certain sounds. it's hard for the experienced callers to give advice because of this as well as for the new caller to understand why they are not doing as well as someone else.
I think the whole conversation is interesting but honestly I think we sometimes over complicate predator hunting in general. but please fellas keep it going. it has been educational and very good debate here. and I don't think anyone is getting angry over the words being posted.
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Nope your right Ben I'm enjoying reading all the stuff too... What's the old saying? "You Say Tomatoooooo I'll Say TOMATO or there are more way to skin a cat..
See some people think this way and some people think that way...By the way that's how coyotes are too.. LOL
So me...I do IMO just don't go out and call...I try to play with all predators brains even the big 17 pound red fox and the 13 pound gray fox too... Could I be lucky? maybe? Could I be playing with these critters brains that they are putting there guard down ? Maybe? 49 coyotes to coming to a person calling in Pa is not half bad????? Now you have to watch too...Pride comenth before the fall...There are many areas that we have to improve ourselves on..That what we need to do strive to improve and learn more and more and more...We all need to pinpoint our weak areas or areas we need improvement and fix them....
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just a question though UB. how many times have you been hunting this year for predators? I would be willing to bet that you spend more time in the field then most. same with bob. I get out on the weekends if that anymore. I think I have only been out for 5 weekends if that this season for predators. The more time in the field your going to increase your odds. its a numbers game IMO.
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Of course
don't hate the player, Ben, hate the game
It bites but I may take a carpenters job for the winter
This will definitely hurt my incentive to be afield
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Ben yep I get to go out a bit more since I don't have to get up in the morning and go to work..Nice being retired....I have hunted the early part of the predator season a lot this year... I have failed a lot too.. That dreaded full moon periods but still called in predators then to but not in great numbers.. Most times getting frustrated that I don't even hunt that full week of the full moon... Looking forward for this wind to stop now. Also tonight...No more full moon...It's on it's way out...
Again....predator calling ........seeing predator and not seeing predators many a ignorant thing is done.. I have done them too in my 25 years..
If anything....if people could remember these two things....The predator will get in direct line with the call and they will most times come into the wind...Now think of the targeted animal and adjust to out smart them when they do this. hunt close to a call like a gray fox hunter and coyotes comes in you have just been had....etc etc etc
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Not hatin LL just pointing somethin out is all. Jealous maybe but not hatin. :)
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Ub I fan the sound cone
and put the wind where I can shoot or where they cant come from.
OK anything else on "core areas"?
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Leglifter
I like this core area conversation stuff; I just type way to slow though. This type of conversation is how we learn and try new things predator hunting.
Ernie quoits
You say core areas are core areas but they move around ( I agree) so why even call them "core areas".
Core area? Why by golly that is were they spend most of there time. Core area is just a word that sounds good and kind of fits the scenario pretty good for those educated people. Me, I would just say were they been hanging out a lot at.
As long as food, cover and water are there coyotes will stay there and even have a litter there again. Good core area will always hold coyotes even if the current coyotes get killed another mated pair will take it over when they find it or one of there pups wanders back and makes it home again.
The problem here is coyotes seam to move more then others I read about, why? This is the problem that needs answers.
I like your story about how I affected the coyote’s movement. But did he travel out of his core area to find that deer? I think he found one dead there before in his core area and just checked it out to see if any were there again.
PS he would have known I already left by the amount of sent left in the air and on the weeds and would have possibly ate the crumbs I dropped.
O- Yea the real fall dispersal just started this week. But that another topic.
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Been a full few days and sorry I haven't been on the computer.
Saturday morning I missed a Coyote in it's core area. I was check'n traps and knew a few Coyotes were around. Wife and I opened gifts early so I could get outa the house early. I set up and there it came. No problem, Christmas Coyote, the pictures were already in my mind. I missed. Should of waited, I think I hit a twig. Did kill a few Greys Friday evening. Was snow'n (had back lighting) Saturday night and I headed home fast. Didn't hunt last night because of the wind, but had critters in the traps this morning.
I feel Coyotes have a core area and home range. And move in their home range and set up new core area from time to time. Example (as mentioned above): when denning and rearing pups.
I talked with a Minnisota trapper that was working with the state to radio collar Coyote for research. His research area is similar to my Pa. area, farm land, woodlots and a few mountains. He did memtion Coyote had smaller home range than he expected. Said in summer time, Coyotes stayed in corn fields all day and most of the night with one Coyote going to sit next to nearby barn for most of the night.
As the seasons changed so did the Coyotes. As one corn field was harvested, the Coyotes moved to an unharested corn field and so on. When corn was all harvested, Coyotes core area was the thickest cover in the area.
As corn and cover came down, Coyotes would move in a triangle pattern from point A to B, to C. I haven't talked with this trapper for two years, but will find out the final results of the research.
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Just a greenhorn here reading this very interesting topic. Perhaps since the eastern coyote allegidly comes from wolves, we should study more about the wolf to determine habits of the coyote. Seems to me there is a ton more info on the wolves than the eastern coyote. It is a canine, and if you look at a domestic dog, they're instincts and habits are very much like a wolf. Sure some have more drive than others, but they have a pack mentality.
Example, if all of us had dogs and we went to each others house, let them all run around together for half the day, they become less likely to listen to you when you call them. They can also become more aggressive in that pack mentality. Just an observation, not stepping on anyones toes.
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I agree. I think when a k9 runs with another k9 the majority of the time it is more aggressive then when alone. Again this all comes down to personality IMO.
Of course gender and size will play a role too but what about the dog that lays under the table pissin itself.
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How about the one that snips at every other dog....
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but what about the dog that lays under the table pissin itself.
Shoot it! Just kidding. There is normaly a beta in a pack, I beleive. Either outcasted or just constantly picked on. Nature is cruel!
You posted while I was...The one snippin is probably the frightened one, and may be the one ending up pissin himself under the table.
In my experienced dogs that snip and growl are scared and or intimidated.
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i have read this post on and off for since it started and have started to reply a couple of times but got called away and wasn't able to post. i have a couple of minutes now and like Renny says, these are my observations and not gospel.
from what i have seen, coyotes will remain in a group as long as good food supplies are available. If they are not and hunting is tough they will be disbursed in September. If hunting is good they will remain in the group as long as they can behave and food supplies remain good. if a pup tries to breed in the group then he or she would be disbursed to start his or her own pack.
Alpha females are the easiest to call with coyote vocals because they are the most territorial with the Alpha male being second. Lesser dogs respond better to distress sounds expecially in Sept and then again in the dead of winter when things get tough, this is also a time when the alphas can be called to food sounds.
Now for core areas, I think that coyotes have a big home range with several hunting and bedding areas within their home range. I think that they will do this because when they over hunt an area the prey become smarter and harder to catch. just like when we bow hunt or predator hunt we do not over hunt an area. I will give you two examples, a buddy of mine lives one mountain over from me, if he is hearing coyotes behind his house i am not behind mine. but usually within 5 days to a week of him hearing them they will then be hunting and bedding behind my house and he stops hearing them. secondly and i have seen this a bunch of times in the snow where there was a two sets of coyote tracks coming from pines ontop of the moutain to a field by the house where they hunt rabbits and mice. the next day there would be another set of tracks taking almost the same route from bedding to hunting areas then again the following night, then the tracks would stop around after 3 or 4 nights and they would be gone.
I think that there are a couple of denning sites in a coyotes home range and she will pick the one where the prey is most abundant in her area and will not need to move the denning site until the pups become mobile, then she will move them.
as for calling, if i am calling just for coyotes, there are 2 calls that I will always use. coyote pup and grey fox pup are worked in somewhere.
let me ask this question, which i have some theories on also. What happens if I go out behind the house tomorrow and kill the Alpha Male and Female what happens?
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I would suspect if there is a bunch of young ones in their pack, you would be able to call em in pretty easily with food or old male sounds till they wise up and move on, or get killed. I think its possible you could also have a male who was possibly going to challenge the Alpha soon who would step up. Either way, I think they would move on.
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I would think a new coyote would take over and become the leader of the pack...Once was told by a hunter in Arizona...that in the Spring if you killed one of the Alpha's when they are rearing pups...The other alpha starts to kill livestock because of the pressure to get food.. Also that if you kill the Alpha Male you better kill the Alpha female and then all the pups too.. I think this was his way of saying that we should not be hunting coyotes until September...Recently read a study that it's the Alphas that do all the killing of the Livestock..So no matter what you do when pups need the protein they, the alphas are going to go after the sheep.. I have seen this in May and June in Dauphin county. Every year , same sheep farmer would loose 6 to 7 sheep. Many of the killed were the ewes? Don't know why they singled the ewe out?
Also in the study...it was the alpha that come to the call easier then the beta. The male and female beta or bravo could give a jack about other coyotes coming into the area... However not so for the Alpha's.. It was kind of like Keep Off My Turf!!!
I attended a seminar at the PGC headquarters in Harrisburg....It was open to the public and the State Trapper gave a talk about the Pa coyote.
He claimed when he would dispatch a coyote.. he would take his hands and climb up the back of the coyote and when he got to it's neck he would Break it... The Beta or Bravo would do nothing an allow him to do this... However he said if you got an alpha in a trap...As soon as you started to take your hands up the outside of their back...They would try to bite you....Hoping you can see how the alpha are more aggressive then the passive Beta or bravo of the pack... See...like I said ... You got to yank that alpha coyotes chain be it a the female or the male....???????
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I dont get the yank of the chain statement you frequently make.
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i can come on here and say i am the best at calling predators and trapping and none of you other guys know what you are talking about. I am sure some would come back and argue there point that i wasn't. but really i was just yanking their chain to see if i could get someone upset enough to care. same thing with coyotes, come into an alphas territory and say here i am the new dog in town. if you do it the right way they dont figure you out to be human either by scent of sight then they are going to come in.. kinda like if you are mad and not thinking clearly you may say or do something you normal wouldn't. the right things at the right time can make the drop their guard. Uncle Buck will explain it better than i can.
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if i come into an area and kill the alpha male and female then there will be a fight over the territory, other packs will know they are gone and will try and take it over. if there are any family members left they will have to try and defend or be driven off. it is a very good time to hunt that area hard for the next week or so and with a lot of coyote vocals.
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Think of Eastern coyote calling like a STING.. You know you do things to people and you make them drop their guard and they do things that normally they would not do..This goes on in life all the time... Best example but no intentions....What if someone said something about your family? Or better yet someone a neighbor started throwing things into your yard. Just say you looked out your window and you see the neighbor come on to your property and pour old oil from his car all over you lawn.. Now what would your reaction be to that? it would upset you...Your neighbor is yanking your chain by doing things to YOUR TURF!!
When other coyotes come into the areas occupied by a pack of coyotes... The same thing happens...The Alpha male and female don't take kind to it...So what you need to do is simulate that you are that infringing coyote . You have come into the coyotes home range... Your going to sires his females, kill their young coyotes, take their food... Coyotes mammals just like us want to protect their turf!!!! So by making them think your another coyote you get them so upset that eventually they come in to investigate...And to whoop Butt!!
Now what you do to do this is: To do coyote vocalization but then keep quiet for long periods of time.. Now it the quiet time that works on the coyote alphas in the pack... They just heard a coyote howl twice.. They hear this and IMO they are starting to think "WHAT THE ??????
Then on the 2ND vocalization maybe about 8 minutes later they hear a pup and or a KIYI fight...Now this even gets them whooped...You could throw in a minute of rabbit squalls and then 8 more minutes of silence.. So here you are: My howl just let the coyotes that I am a coyote and I am now on their turf. The kiyi and the pup makes them think I want to hurt the pups, Then they hear the food sound and they think I am going to take their food. Then I would do a coyote challenge now this is the one that say...I the simulated coyote want to fight and take their lands, females, pups, and food. Surely you can see strategy here? Also as Scott pointed out The Gray Fox Pup...Coyotes hate gray fox probably because they would eat the coyote pups.. So when I speak of yanking the chain this is what I am trying to get everyone to think about?
When the coyotes come into fight...they will not howl they will just show up...Maybe about the 35 minute to the 45 minute mark in your calling scenario.. The great Randy Anderson is the one who told me to do this to call our Eastern Pa coyotes and he was right!!
Here in Pa the important thing is finding the just perfect place to set up to nail them before they smell you when they come to the call.. I mean not the calling, the Yanking!!!
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LOL...well said UB and Scott. That makes sense when you put it in those words.
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Randy Anderson recently made comment on call ins in Predator Extreme Magazine. He added that a caller should turn after calling for a short while and face the other direction away from where you think the coyotes are... In other words...Start yanking their chain by aiming your call a direction away from where you think they are... This makes the alpha or pack think that the coyotes are moving away and it's suppose to make the coyotes come in faster then the 35 to 45 minute mark...It also could make them show up right in rifle or shotgun range.. I have not tried this yet but am looking forward to adding this to my scenario from now on because it makes a lot of sense.
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If only targeting the "Top Dogs" in a population you are calling a small percentile.
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scott says-
if i come into an area and kill the alpha male and female then there will be a fight over the territory
Good theory. And that happens anytime of the year, with or without alfa pair. If another pack moves in, and alfa pair is out of earshot or long distance away other members will defend territory, win or lose, they will defend in hopes the boss shows.
Arnie Hayden did the first Coyote study in Pa. I ask Arnie some questions about Coyotes and about the Alfa pair. Arnie told me when the alfa male is removed, He is usually replaced within 72 hours with a good popualtion. I think this holds true in other states with high density population.
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If only targeting the "Top Dogs" in a population you are calling a small percentile.
very true, most of the time i start off with distress sounds just in case.
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Most times I am not even hunting coyotes... I am hunting fox... I will be using food sounds.. I have called in coyotes with jackrabbit sounds already.. However like I posted in other post..It's the woodpecker distress that gets them howling.. That is when I go to the coyote calling scenario.. Me I don't truly target alphas... I try to call in Eastern Coyotes.. I will not do the coyote challenge until about the 35 minute mark since all the other coyote vocalization will call in every coyote... Interrogation Howl, Coyote Pup, KIYI, Female Invitation Howl, Group Howls, etc..
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It's funny this past week I have got reports of three different coyote groups in areas I do hunt but haven't hunted in a while. Last night I went and hunted a spot that I called in coyotes at last year. I made a few squeaks and what do ya know a hunter pops out of a treestand in the next door field. he's hunting coyotes as well.
I have been reading up on the various boards from some of the guys that I look up to in the coyote calling business and I am noticing one thing and that is that the sound you use is and should be the last thing on your mind while calling coyotes. The big common thing is being in the right location and the right setup. These are guys in more target rich areas then what most of the guys in pa are calling as well. these guys are from arizona to georgia to maine.
I find the same thing with fox hunting that the sound is normally the less important thing and location is the only thing that matters. get in good area and call it. I hear about what many people's favorite sounds are. I think they become their favorite because they like the sound of em and they call animals in on them. mainly because that is what they use all the time because that is their favorite sound not the animals. They try something else and it doesn't work they say it was the sound when in fact it could have been a bad area. it seems kinda asinine to compare a fox to a coyote but in reality they are both predators and they both react to a situation.
Good conversation again fellas. I'm just ramblin to tell ya the truth. I am a opportunistic hunter. I call for em all at the same time and kill whatever shows up. I might just try to target coyotes then next year. we'll see.