Author Topic: Theory, No Proof, BS, Not Proven  (Read 21890 times)

uncle buck

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Theory, No Proof, BS, Not Proven
« on: December 25, 2010, 06:42:02 PM »
Things that hunters talk about predator hunting that is hear say or not proven.. If I could Only See Into A Eastern Coyotes Brain!!!!!


I have one for comment?

In populated areas in the East coyotes.... We had discussion on our Eastern Coyotes...That in the daytime their core area might be deep back into the mountains or boonies... However once night falls they come down off that mountain and go into the cities below and work the garbage cans, eat the cats, and feed.
What do you hunters think about this?

uncle buck

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Re: Theory, No Proof, BS, Not Proven
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2010, 06:43:57 PM »
We posted about this one years back.... One of the well known predator callers that I have the up most respect for said:

Coyotes don't like mud...They don't like to venture in muddy areas..

Yet I have seen coyote in leg hold traps and they are muddier then ever in that trap.

What do you think...Will a coyote divert and come to your call from another approach area or  come across a muddy field to your calling?
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 06:55:54 PM by uncle buck »

uncle buck

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Re: Theory, No Proof, BS, Not Proven
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2010, 06:59:19 PM »
Another.....Coyotes fear vehicles that stop for long periods of time  or park after coming down old logging roads and high tail it!  Now what you should do is have your hunter or hunters get out of the vehicle and the driver continues on way out of the targeted area so the coyote thinks the vehicle is just passing through and not a threat!!!!???  True or BS?
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 07:01:04 PM by uncle buck »

Offline Leglifter

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Re: Theory, No Proof, BS, Not Proven
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2010, 08:35:11 PM »
I don't believe in core areas

The muddy coyotes in traps are usually muddy from the mud they make fighting the trap,
I don't think they like muddy trails and will travel others if they have the choice.

I do believe that if the vehicle keeps going they will feel more at ease when they hear it is far enough away.
A friend of mine experimented with this on a 4 wheeler, after he drove the 4 wheeler out of the field and out of ear shot,
he would park it and sneak back to the field to see the predators back out mousing
« Last Edit: December 26, 2010, 12:06:48 AM by Leglifter »

Offline Buckwheat

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Re: Theory, No Proof, BS, Not Proven
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2010, 12:36:51 PM »
Leglifter

Quote
I don't believe in core areas
Can I hear why you think this. I think all animals have core areas. Heck! I even have one. I do not mean the refrigerator either, but I get shot there pretty easy.
For a brief moment I could hear nature through all the noise.

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uncle buck

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Re: Theory, No Proof, BS, Not Proven
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2010, 02:19:06 PM »
I do believe in Core areas too.. But once the food runs out they find other core areas.. Like I said before... Now that the regular deer season is over.  If you find out where the deer are cored up the coyotes will be there too...I don't think they get to kill all the deer but they sure enough try too...

Offline Leglifter

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Re: Theory, No Proof, BS, Not Proven
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2010, 04:08:10 PM »
There is an instance right there, like UB said.
How can you say coyotes have a certain core area where they spend 80% of their time?
Especially when no one knows a coyotes exact home range and what areas within that range, give that coyote no reason to be there.
Then theres the whole deer yard aspect where the predators follow the flocks and herds of prey, are these areas core areas of the prey or the predator?
If an animals "core" area changes from week to week,month to month,and even year to year, how can you say that they have a certain area where they spend 80% of their time?

I think a home range is a home range, and that left over 20% of the range is just unproductive, pressured, or unsafe areas of that range.
Also an animals range is a living,constantly changing thing, crops get cut,acorns fall and rot, water sources freeze.
You'd have to be a coyote to fully understand what goes on in their lives.
Of course this is my own opinion  
Does anyone have any "core area" documented studies that I can change my mind by reading,
or try to shoot down?
« Last Edit: December 26, 2010, 04:23:58 PM by Leglifter »

Offline Leglifter

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Re: Theory, No Proof, BS, Not Proven
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2010, 04:37:04 PM »
Here you go,
 check this out from the study Dave Dunbar was involved with.
I know Dave believes in core areas, and I hope my beliefs don't upset anyone.
http://www.theconservationagency.org/coyote.htm

Note that the areas that have the least amount of tracking hits are highly human populated.
Also the sparse hits around the human populated areas, don't they look like funnel ways, or travel routes through
these populated areas to get to better hunting or bedding grounds?  

I believe the location of this study is not the particular type of area, we as hunters, are frequenting,
there seems to be an awful lot of coyotes there in such a small island.
I'm looking at the last gps hit map on the page and every different color is a member of a certain pack,
I don't know how many animals per pack. 
« Last Edit: December 26, 2010, 04:45:42 PM by Leglifter »

Offline Buckwheat

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Re: Theory, No Proof, BS, Not Proven
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2010, 05:57:04 PM »
 LEGLIFTER
 O -YEA. I am so upset that I am eating my second pretzel already.
Finally some one has an opinion, well maybe?
I hope no one gets upset. :>)
I only went to 3 sites and they talk core area.

This could turn out to be an interesting topic. Maybe we all can learn something if we keep an open mind and really learn about pa coyotes. I currently believe there are no experts on the pa coyote. Maybe some in the PGC have good data but not good enough to hunt them.  But we should the leaders like it or not. I think we are just scratching the surface. Once most people think they know enough you stop learning.

Mississippi study

We estimated 60 seasonal home ranges and core areas for 18 adult coyotes (10 male, 8 females) from 1993-97. Home range size did not differ across seasons (P = 0.681), but did between sexes (P = 0.006) with females maintaining larger home ranges. Similarly, core area size did not differ across seasons (P = 0.736), but did between sexes (P = 0.001) with females maintaining larger core areas

 
A common observation in animal space use studies is that animals do not use space uniformly, but rather use some areas of their home ranges and territories with much higher intensity than others. Numerous methods have been developed to estimate these "core areas"; however, all of the current methods available are based on arbitrary rules. Additionally, most studies do not attempt to understand what behavioral processes lead to the observed patterns of non-uniform space use. This study has four main objectives: 1) to develop an objective and more precise method for estimating core areas, 2) to understand the processes leading to unequal coyote capture probabilities across territories, 3) to understand the biological mechanisms that influence the location of bobcat core areas, and 4) to determine how differences in territory size affect coyote movement patterns. The core area estimation method I developed consistently performed better than methods using arbitrary values to define core areas. Using this method to estimate coyote core areas, I determined that coyote capture locations were not actually biased towards low use areas because of low familiarity with those areas, but rather because of a higher probability of encountering traps there. Intensity of coyote use did, however, influence the location of bobcat core areas. When prey abundance was high, bobcat core areas were located in areas of low coyote use but occurred in areas of high coyote use when prey abundance was low, indicating bobcat core areas are the result of at least two processes: foraging conditions and avoidance of intraguild predation. Lastly, coyote movement behavior changed significantly as territory size increased, leading to faster and straighter movement patterns. However, even though coyotes in larger territories moved twice as fast as those in small territories, they took significantly longer to traverse their territories compared to those in small territories. This might be the result of coyotes occupying large territories being less constrai
ned by defense due to lower conspecific density compared to coyotes occupying small territories. Overall, my research reveals the importance of using more precise methods to delineate animal space use patterns, and the greater information researchers can obtain when they attempt to understand the processes underlying space use patterns.


Abstract: Interspecific competition among canids can result in mortalities and spatial displacement of smaller canids
by larger canids. To investigate mortalities and spatial relationships of swift foxes (Vulpes velox) and coyotes (Canis
latrans), we captured and radio-tracked both species at Rita Blanca National Grasslands in northwestern Texas. At least
89% of swift fox mortalities were caused by coyotes, resulting in a relatively low annual survival of 0.47 for swift
foxes. Annual home ranges of swift foxes occurred near the periphery and outside coyote home ranges, and did not
overlap or only slightly overlapped coyote core areas. Thirty-three of 36 known swift fox dens occurred outside coyote
core areas. When swift foxes established dens within coyote core areas (n = 3), they were killed by coyotes shortly
thereafter. Our data indicated that spatial displacement of swift foxes was not due to behavioral avoidance of coyotes
but rather to increased killing of swift foxes within coyote core areas. Most mortalities caused by coyotes occurred in
the immediate vicinity of swift fox dens, suggesting that coyotes made an active effort to kill swift foxes
For a brief moment I could hear nature through all the noise.

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Offline Leglifter

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Re: Theory, No Proof, BS, Not Proven
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2010, 06:36:44 PM »
Give me some time to comprehend  this,
I already see contradictions

Offline Leglifter

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Re: Theory, No Proof, BS, Not Proven
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2010, 07:30:38 PM »
Before we go further, Buckwheat,
what is your opinion on the core area conspiracy?

Offline Buckwheat

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Re: Theory, No Proof, BS, Not Proven
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2010, 08:20:25 PM »
Leglifter
That is the point, core areas are core areas but they do move around I think?   What do you guy think?  I have been doing this predator hunting for a long time and not trying to sound smart but there is a lot of stuff out there that is only half truths and people think it is fact. People have been only hunting coyotes in pa for only a couple of years and I know a lot of them personally.  Even the guys that people think are experts might still be wet behind the ears. They kill one or two coyotes or stumble into some at one time and then use that information as the rule and tell others it is the way to do it from that day forward. Then all of a sudden some one seam to know all the habit's and in and outs of the coyotes daily life and pass that on. I have fell into this trap a bunch of times myself and cost me a lot of lost time in the field hunting coyotes were there were none early on. Today I still know nothing about coyotes except to hunt them if they are were I am hunting.

First facts, if you have a lot of coyote tracks, fresh scat, see coyotes in the day time out hunting for food all the time you are in a core area. The hunter’s odds of calling in a coyote and killing one goes way up.  If that hunter only kills just one or two it does not make him an expert, it makes a hunter with a target rich environment.  However in time with that kind of hunting he will get knowledge of how to kill them in that area.
For a brief moment I could hear nature through all the noise.

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Offline foxpro51

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Re: Theory, No Proof, BS, Not Proven
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2010, 08:54:11 PM »
Hunting coyotes in most cases in Pa is luck unless you see the animals in an area or find tracks. There is a huge difference in hunting coyotes here in Pa vs Texas or Wyoming. Anyone with reasonable talent with a hand call or using a e caller can call coyotes out west. It's just a game of numbers. There is far more coyotes out west. As far as core areas I believe coyotes will stay in areas were food is unless it's mating season. I have hunted in pa this year 15 times and called in 3 coyotes without a kill. There tough here in Pa. Another reason coyotes kills are higher out west like Wyoming the cover is more open thus you can see the animal coming further. Not so here in Pa. I honestly feel that the coyote population will grow big time in our state due to the dense undergrowth.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2010, 09:08:54 PM by foxpro51 »

Offline Buckwheat

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Re: Theory, No Proof, BS, Not Proven
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2010, 09:06:30 PM »
Earl
 I miss Texas and it is cold here too. lol
For a brief moment I could hear nature through all the noise.

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Offline Leglifter

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Re: Theory, No Proof, BS, Not Proven
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2010, 09:06:57 PM »
Ernie, you know I don't think I am any kind of expert or authority on anything,

I'd like this discussion to be centered around the behavioral aspect of the coyotes daily and nightly habits in the way it uses its surroundings to survive.
You say core areas are core areas but they move around( I agree) so why even call them "core areas".

I agree that some people stumble on scenarios that result in a harvest and think"thats the way it always is"
I say that these scenarios change constantly with every passing minute.
Kind of like the butterfly effect.
Here's an example:
Ernie gets pretzel crumbs on the key board
His wife complains
He figures "heck on this abuse, I'm going hunting"
Ernie goes to a cut corn field with brushy edges to call.( lone coyote tracks there alot)
No eyes so he leaves.
an hour goes by and a coyote makes its way to this spot to hunt.
On its way there the coyote comes up to Ernies tracks( and trail of pretzel crumbs)in the snow
The coyote gets spooky and leaves
It travels through a creek bed for a mile and finds that a deer was hit by a car and died of internal injuries.
The coyote feeds from this deer for a few days, bedding close,it has water from the creek.
Ernie goes back to the cut corn field the next few days to find no more lone coyote tracks.

Now, when the coyote was feeding on the deer, was that his core area?
was the cut corn field its core area?
If Ernie would not have got pretzel crumbs on the key board would the coyote find the roadkilled deer?

The point being that, in an ever changing world everything is effected.
There are no constants
We can only make the best of our odds by the laws of probability.
Sure, the more scouting and observing we do, the more scenarios we find that might make us successful.

You got to be out there in the game.

Again, my opinion