PPHA Forums
Predator Hunting => Predator Biology => Topic started by: Hern on August 21, 2013, 08:03:04 AM
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I would like to start a discussion on a Coyote's reaction to our best calling spots.
I've read on thesehere message board that Pa. Coyotes are hard to call in and we should wait a certain time and all the other basic plans.
One thing overlooked is how the Coyote will approach. Yes, I read where some folks say to use the terrain, but I still think these folks don't practice what the preach or are just computer callers or repeat what they read without trying in the field.
From my experience and study from several Coyote research programs, and talking with Coyotemen, I feel Coyote are easily called and many Pa. Predator callers bring in Coyote without even knowing Coyote are present.
Yes, I will say, most of you readers called in Coyote and never knew it. Me included.
How our Coyote responds and approaches is because of much human pressure. So Coyote uses swales, dips, ditches, fencerows, benches, bushes, brush, stone fences, you name it to come in, downwind, undetected.
....just wanted to get the Fox calling mentality out of serious Coyote calling....it's a different ball game
I would like to hear your thoughts and experiences on Coyote reaction, response & approach.....
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Hern,
I couldn't agree with you more about calling coyotes being so much more diffrent than fox. When I call fox, I usually only set a max of 10-15 minutes before I move on to the next set. With Coyotes, I sit for at lease 45 min to an hour.
I have also experienced the situation where I didn't think I called anything in , but when I leave my set, I come across the tracks in the snow where the Coyote's circled me and I never saw them.
With hunting fox, I like to hunt with a man working the call and scan light, and a second as the shooter. With Coyotes, (and some will disagree with me) I like using 3 guys: One to run the call, and I like putting a shooter out about 100 yards on each side of the call. That way when the Coyotes are making a big circle, the shooters stand a better chance of getting a shot off at one. I understand where some people feel that less is better due to scenting up the area. Everything has a trade off.....
I am by far an expert on the subject, but these are simply things that seem to work for me.
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I am by far an expert on the subject, but these are simply things that seem to work for me.
;D
Whoa is this a type o? ;) ;D
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Bob, If people think you're an expert...they expect to much!! LOL I do a lot of reading on the subject !
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(http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb456/TFC2223X/Facebook/Mobile%20Uploads/1078634_379169562205342_1866497463_o.jpg) (http://s1206.photobucket.com/user/TFC2223X/media/Facebook/Mobile%20Uploads/1078634_379169562205342_1866497463_o.jpg.html)
When I call for any predator terrain rules the stand in conjunction with a multitude of additional factors. Since I hunt solo most of the time this is of even more importance since the "downwind guy" isn't going to bail me out. I know most say that coyotes go downwind and alot of mine do but, I also have taken hard chargers on my 12 oclock as well as those who go upwind.
Pressure, acceptable intrusion/nonacceptable intrusion etc. does definitely come into play on our calling stands and wise choices have to be made to increase ones odds. I think eventually just about everyone will call one in by pushing the button and getting lucky but, to those who disect this alittle more and abandon the one dimensional mind set, success will occur on a more frequent basis. (i.e calling only into the wind and so on. The best wind regardless of direction is the one that works for that stand with the existing conditions).
The above coyote is from a recent Pennsylvania daylight hunt that I was on where terrain along with many not one factor was considered before ever commencing to call. This one went downwind like so many wil do. Sorry for the bad cellular picture but, it was all I had on me at the time.
Nice post Hern. Good luck to you this season sir.
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'23, why do you stay longer for Coyote then Fox? Are they slow approaching? Do they travel further?
;23 says-
I have also experienced the situation where I didn't think I called anything in , but when I leave my set, I come across the tracks in the snow where the Coyote's circled me and I never saw them.
Back in the very late '80's to early '90's I did a 5 season, self-study on 'after calling', I took a looksee. By that, with snow on the ground, after I called (kill, miss, no shows) I would check out my calling area to see what was happening. I did this for my own knowledge. I even continued after the season, without gun in hand. It took time and reduced the fur check.
I felt this was time well spent to get a feel on what was happening. At this time, I noticed I didn't see all the Fox and I certainly didn't see all the Coyote, if fact I didn't see most of the Coyote because they swung downwind and used dips, ditches, brush and anything to keep something between us so they could get a nose full before committing. I saw, first hand, where Coyote could snake thru a thicket without knocking snow of branches. How did they do that? Sneaky Buggers. Dang.
At this time, I realized a Coyote wasn't a Fox.
I started hunting with a partner, any family member or one trusted friend. I posted this friend or nephew downwind and from my experience, I posted him at the right terrain, right spot.
Bingo.
One detail took me years to learn.
My success rate sored when I worked with a partner in the right spot.
So how does all this crap and info fit in with pressured Coyote?
Our Eastern Coyote feels pressure almost every week. Farming, Hunting, Logging, ATV's, Hunting, Snowmobiles, Hunting, Trapping, Hikers, Joggers and other outdoor activities.
Feeling pressure, our Coyote responds with caution until he gets a nose full. Coyote do trust their nose. And that's sorta what I came up while looking at tracks and no fur. Coyotes want to keep their hide by using their nose.
'2223,
I do get frontal approaches during this time of year from adult Coyote, but rarely during fur season. Territory is much small now and I usually am using Coyote sounds near den sites.
Also, frontal approaches from pups during this time of year until December or until they learn how to survive.
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The Eastern Coyote! Wow what a critter! They are mammals just like humans! Some humans are book smart and some are life smart. Let say the Pa coyote is just plain smart. God has given him the gifts! He is what we call street smart. If they are there they will come to the call. However they don't come in fast sometimes because they have the gift of paranoia. You have to break down their physic. Yank their chain! That's why you sometimes don't have them show up for 45 min. I have called in coyotes in 20 seconds out to near 45 min. Many coyotes don't approach you into the wind! They like to flank you from the sides. I do think they know something is quite not right where the red light is on and they come in for a look see from your side. You have to keep an eye out for the end of the tree lines. They show up here and will stare at you from your side but only stay for 30 seconds. They will come down the paths of least resistance. Along the farmers porch, approach through corral with other live stock, down the county roads and come in behind your position. So far I have called in 105 pa coyotes in many of the 67 counties of Pa. No I didn't kill 105 coyotes. Many I didn't shoot because of their approach. Thank God that I have called in many coyotes for other hunters. They can at least vouch of me. Ok why haven't I bagged more of the 105 coyotes? Sadly many of those people just miss them. Some don't listen to me and move. Oh many coyotes end up in unsafe shooting spots. I remember during mosquito creek I called this coyote in Perry county. I have a shotgun with Deadcoyote in it. There the coyote stands right with the horse in the corral! Of course I didn't shoot it! I don't worry about the down wind side. Like many said they, Pa coyotes use the least resistance for their approach. They know to use the safety of farm structures in Pa populated counties! Your also going to fail if you select the wrong partners to hunt with too. Everyone got to think like the target animal your hunting. You hunt with partners who do what they want to do you already failed. I too like to hunt coyotes myself.
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Unckle Buck....Thats some pretty tough advice to top! Many thanks for that contribution to the forum!!!
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This is reply #8...Hern, I think you have an answer here. Earlier you posted somewhere that you had some sage advice that said something to the effect of "see what the animals are telling you". Funny how you turned on caller with your post, had 82 views so far and only 8 takers.. ..sort of like coyotes, don't you think? There are a bunch sneaking around in the brush but only a few will commit....come on people nobody is dumb luckier than me...step on the pan!! make a comment...GOOSE, BEN, where are ya??? I concur with what has been said so far,especially Kirks view that flip on switch and odds will make it happen, having had some similar circumstances. I would only add that age of the coyote and it's life experiences might also come into play with how they come in..one that has no bad human activity or is young might just blast in or hang around..1st one I got, I missed 1st shot...I hung around he hung around ...big mistake on his part. Once sitting on a hillside at least 600yds from my brother..he howls,makes me jump.. ::) then he starts this growling thing he does...coyote comes racing down hill past me, I have a rifle..no shot..and disappears..later when we hook up I say thought you were going to shoot one there...he has no clue, didn't see a thing...Moonlit night coyote used fence rows and shadows and went undetected....and finally there's the one who sat and watched my friend stack winter fire wood.."sat there like a german shepard and watched me"...friend(?) laughs at me when I show up with rifle and call.."go wash my dishes and watch out window I see more coyotes than you..lol"...DAMN!! 8)
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jaspr1, just wanted to share what I observed about Coyote reaction/approach details due to pressure. .
Heck, for a several years, I brought home Fox, Coyote and Coon droppings. This was also a self-study how I could better age droppings, hence; watching them age & break down during certain weather conditions and time of year.
Another ongoing self-study is tracks and tracking, and enjoy finding furbearer travel ways and crossings.
Also, years ago, the use of trail cams to test furbearer reaction to trapping lures and find hot crossings.
I still use trail cams today, 101 uses.
Plus a self-study in cover scent for 13 years. They call it misting nowadays.
But these are other topics to discuss...let talk pressured Coyote and how they come to your setups...
...I never own a remote control caller. But placing speaker up wind and hunter setting up down wind, in the right location should work if speaker is within range of remote. I sometimes place shooter 50-75-100 yards from my calling location. Do remote callers work within that distance?
jaspr1, there's no need to call people out to reply on a subject. I rarely start a post or topic, but do reply to other posts. I don't keep score who replies or views. For the most part on message boards, there are way more views than replies. So relax and don't worry about things you have no control of...get another cup of coffee :). Now I gotta go check Groundhog and Skunk traps and a few trail cams....
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I really admire the fact that you do all these "self studies"
Very impressive as usual
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coyotes have different personalities and smarts. i am going tonight to a spot where the coyotes are very territorial, we called for them last Friday night and had them challenging us until a quad drove behind me and spooked them. we will set up the same way tonight and we will get a shot at them if nobody is around. Territorial coyotes are the easiest to call in my opinion, they are the ones that will through caution to the wind if and when you upset them enough. This coyote and the way we call is usually seen around the 18 to 20 minute mark. These coyotes see a lot of traffic, from 4x4s, parties, and me rabbit hunting with my beagle. they are very vocal toward my beagle but have left her alone so far.
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another spot we are going tonight, we called last Friday and had them respond to us, not sure what they were saying because i have never heard that particular call or response before. almost like they were just excited and fired up. this group is chasing fawns around a big farm area and the property owner wants them gone. had them light up during my first series of calls last time and they got real close to the shooter but he thinks when they got close he lit himself up by shining his light on a big oak he was standing besides. this group was coming in on the upside but seemed like they were going to flank the caller by 60 or 70 yards and get around to the downwind side. if we have the correct wind tonight the shooter downwind of the call should get a shot.
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These are the kind of post that end up on Predator Extreme magazine published by some free lance predator calling author with a fictitious name. Such was the case when a slip of tongue at predator calling seminars and on here about using illuminated light sticks for a front shotgun sight. However think of the things that you have in your brain that your going to take to the grave? However if your one of those that think like that there are probably no predators where it gets real hot!
My experience is you could tell other hunters all about this but they truly won't use the data until coyotes have outsmarted them so many times. Then they remember things in post and try it and see that they work.
The real secret is like in who wins football game! The team that plays the most perfect game. See we can tell you how coyotes act but if your gun not sighted in right, you use the wrong gun, take the wrong people, set your head light or scanning light with the wrong type of beam. Any of this wrong and it's simple you failed. IMO when hunting Pa coyotes least is better than more.
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Jaspr1...I be lurking and learning 8) Yes you can teach an old dog new tricks....but the best knowledge is experience "boots on the ground"....we are all different with the way we each approach the situation ;) nut the experience we gain with each outing will stay in our minds...similar to that missed coyote or the one you pinched a toe in a trap...."EXPERIENCE" is the best teacher ::) But I do enjoy reading about others experiences that I try to remember....It's all good!! ;D
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Hey Hern...as UB would say...YANK THEIR CHAIN....lol....I like reading these play by plays...and they are all interesting points of veiw, whether anyone uses the info or not... I'm to old to get bent I'm stiff but there is always a complaint that there isn't enough participation and this is a good subject....and I knew Goose was Lurking ;D ;D............... 8)
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Id like to hear some more story scenarios and experiences from the hunters that made the impression, or confirmed a behavioral theory as to pressured coyotes, to them.
Also Hern,
Are you aware of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle?
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Hern I think the studies you've done are outstanding. That is truly the best way to learn all about your prey. I only wish I had the time to do that, one of these days I will. I do know that I'm reading and absorbing all this info and plan to take it to the field with me and continue to learn from posts like this until the time I can do my own studies.
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Hern, This single post you made was worth my $25 annual membership fee. Please continue.
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I was turkey hunting one day and as my luck would have it there were no turkeys! ;D I got bored and broke out the predator calls. Not really predator hunting but just goofing around. After a couple minutes of calling, I put the calls away and fell asleep under a big pine. The cat nap lasted about 10-15 minutes. When I woke up I started calling again. I didn't even get more than two or three notes out and noticed something working about 80 yards below me to my left. Dang if it wasn't a coyote and there I was with a shotgun. Well about that time the coyote winded me and was gone before I could even lip squeak. I learned more from that coyote than any other animal in my hunting career.
Up to that point I was hunting coyote like I hunt fox. What a mistake! Here are some of the differences I have noticed between fox and coyote in my area and how I hunt them. Keep in mind although growing, I don't have a lot of coyote in my area. I also have a ton of hunting and trapping pressure around me. I can tell when I hunt property that nobody else hunts. I am 90 percent more successful.
My style of hunting for Fox
I prefer to stand up and use the Tri-X stand
I hunt at night
Rifle of choice - 22 hornet
Camo not needed but prefer Mossy Oak Brush
Will hunt any moon phase and any weather except pouring rain
Stands average 15 minutes
Will try to hide with a back ground but have been known to stand in an open field or logging road.
Prefer to hunt reds in open fields and field edges.
Hand and electronic calls almost constantly and mix up sounds
My style of hunting Coyote.
I prefer to sit or kneel using Stoney Point Rapid Pivot Bi-Pod
Hunt after the moon drops into the AM
Rifle of choice - 204 and up
I watch for Barometer and wind and hunt half moon or less - unless I just want to get out.
Stands average 45 minutes - don't know why because if they are there, they respond quick.
Full Mossy Oak Brush Camo and always stay in or in front of cover.
If sunny I try to keep that at my back when wind is favorable.
Prefer to hunt woods and logging roads
Diaphragm and electronics sparingly.
If you compare the two styles, the obvious will stand out. The one thing I wish I had more time to do and will make any hunter more successful is scouting. Maybe someday my schedule will allow it.
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LL asks...
Hern, Are you aware of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle?
No. But am willing to learn.
LL, My studies have been selfish: To figure out how to put more fur in the shed. I was picking a Coyote turd from my jacket pocket, my wife said, 'You think weird.'
'23, LL, zezk, thanks for the kind words.
Scott, between you and me, If you and partner(s) can't get Coyotes in next time or don't see a hide nor hair try this after you think the gig is up...
Start barking and yipping at one another. By that, the gig is up, but I still try to create a couple of intruding Coyotes. I explain to my partner before setup, because he may be out-of-sight, I'll call and stay for x amount of time, after that, I give 3 quick barks. That signals my partner to yip and bark back at me. We heat it up and slow it down for 10-15 minutes. Been doing this 20+ seasons with success and times where we just start off yipping and barking at one another depending on the situation.
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L4F says-
Style for hunting Fox...Will hunt any moon phase and any weather except pouring rainMy style of hunting Coyote...I watch for Barometer and wind and hunt half moon or less - unless I just want to get out.
That's quite dramatic. Want to know why conditions differ to call Fox or Coyote? What's your experiences or theories why weather conditions dictate which Canine to call today.
I know folks worry about moon phase when calling. I trap each season. And some of my largest, single day catch is during Full Moon.
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I don't think moon phase has anything to do with success as far as predators goes but I prefer to hunt the darker phases because it is easier (in my mind) to walk and hide without detection. My lights beam is more distinct also. My experience has also been that I see more critters after the moon goes down and before the sun comes up. Coincidence? Could be.
I don't like hunting in the rain. I am getting to old for that and it messes with my equipment. It is also tough to see thru the scope at night when my light is reflecting off rain or heavy snow. It is hard enough to get a good clean kill shot let alone fight the weather.
Medium to high winds can be tough on a mouth and hand caller (volume & distance), which I am about 90% of the time. I do prefer none to light winds. Of course scent is more difficult to control with stronger and swirling winds. A dropping barometer with high winds means a stronger storm is on it's way.
I became aware of the barometer one day when I was doing some research for deer hunting after I overheard several people discussing it. I thought to my self, "If it's important to deer and deer movement why not other animals?"
I do know that barometric pressure drops before a storm. I feel animals can sense this and at some point stop hunting and hunker down to weather out the storm. (good because I don't like to hunt in a storm either) When the barometric pressure rises the storm is weakening and coming to a stop. The animals will start moving again and are a little more hungry. Making a tough job just a little easier. A pressure of 30.0 and up a few points seems to bee the best for movement in my opinion. The scenario's I mention would be the perfect world and I sometimes think we hunters over think and analyze way too much but I also think that's why we are the top predator on earth, we have that ability.
As far as which predator to hunt in which conditions? Well it's mostly just personal preference but I do feel that the fox being smaller and thin skinned must eat more frequently to sustain life therefore I will hunt them in more unfavorable conditions than I would the coyote. I also have a better fox population where I live which allows me more hunting opportunity's.
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Hern,
We use the same trick with two people. I have also seen UB and his brother do the same. Another thing that has worked for me in the past is to pick up the electronic caller and wave it around creating a more realistic distress sound, at times i will hold it against my leg to muffle it and then take it off.
Tim,
Grey Fox will hole up in cold cold weather for days, their metabilsm is different than a coyote, he has to eat every day. 2 to 3 sub 0 temps will have coyotes on the move..
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I just read an outstanding deer hunting book! I read it not for deer hunting but for coyote hunting. If the weather is warm wild mammals can smell better than when it's cold! So you not only have to understand barometric pressure but Dew Point too! In warm weather coyotes will smell you easier then on cold days! I know in Jan and Feb that's usually where the coyotes come up to me for petting. Warm months use that misting to confuse rather than in cold months! Another example is Large bucks get large because they are extremely paranoid! So your large coyotes since they are mammals to get big because they are extremely paranoid! I remember when I called in the 50 pounder for my brother! Tom shot him with # 4 buckshot from a tree stand! I don't like climbing tree stands but for smart old coyotes you might have to do that!
Look at the mammal the man! What yanks the mammal the man will yank the mammal the coyote. I know some men if they were coyotes they wouldn't last 2 min to a coyote set up. Now a smart mammal that is paranoid be it a old coyote, 17 pound red fox, 13 pound gray fox, or a smart paranoid criminal man are hard to outsmart! Hence why when I call " I Yank Chain!"
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'A feather fell from the sky. The hawk saw it, the deer heard it, and the bear smelled it, but only the coyote did all three'.
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UB states-
If the weather is warm wild mammals can smell better than when it's cold!
UB, I grew up training and running Beagles with my father. He was a true Rabbit man and went to field trials every weekend. My teen years I also spent time behind Fox hounds.
I have seen hounds trail under all conditions, early morning dew, rain, snow, ice, dusty roads, forest floor leaves and such. You are right on about mammals smelling better under certain conditions.
UB goes on-
Now a smart mammal that is paranoid be it a old coyote, 17 pound red fox, 13 pound gray fox...are hard to outsmart!
From my experiences, most of the overweight critters taken are from new territory or places that haven't been hunted or trapped for several seasons. If someone is constantly taking overweight critters I would like to sit by the campfire and chat with 'em.
On a personal note, overweight critters come from less pressured properties. And they do show up in my shed from time to time. Sorta like the 60 lb.+ Beaver...so what's the average weight of the rest of your Beaver?
Over weight critters usually come to call or trap the first setup. They don't seem smarter, they seem less pressured.
Human nature lends use to believe the bigger the critter, the smarter it is.
Over weight and Adult critters are two different subjects.
I take a lot of Adult critters during fur season. Heavier, but average weight for Adults.
Over weight leads me to believe the critter had less pressure.
Your thoughts??
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The 17 pound red fox I got was using the Jack Rabbit distress! Seemed like he wanted bigger game. 13 pound gray didn't come into the GFP but all multiple sounds including the GFP!
Beaver I wouldn't know about Beaver! I don't trap beaver!
Now remember this post is about calling not trapping. When I trap I catch everything. Big, small, sick, stinky. Mange, etc. calling you just can't compare your harvest to trapping. We are not talking apples and apples or oranges and oranges.
Coyotes! Now the bigger coyotes they got that way from being smart! Years in the wild! They move around so they don't always live on the same acres!
As far as scent distribution goes! I think what the author was stressing was in heat scent carries in atmosphere more readily! How heat affects the scent flow from point A to point B. again we are not talking the same type of scent flow. I know for a fact that wet fields the animal scent really shows up hunting dogs. Now if we walked down through a field a coyote would get better scent of you too if it was wet. That's why I wear rubber boots and don't walk through the calling area! Again we have to talk apples and apples or oranges and oranges not apple and oranges. You can't truly compare coyote calling to coyote trapping.
Scott's quote kind of spells it out when it comes to coyotes!
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Boy there's a lot to be learned in this post
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UB warns-
Now remember this post is about calling not trapping
I fully know that. Now remember, UB, I started this post.
I used a 60 lb.+ Beaver as an example because it's our state's heaviest furbearer and I feel furbearers get over weight because of less/no pressure. I feel most readers can finger that out. ;D
UB, but you have replied to this post and mentioned: "smart paranoid criminal man", "...is Large bucks get large because they are extremely paranoid!", " standing there like a corral horse", "...just read an outstanding deer hunting book"" as examples.
Does this mean UB is a Deer hunt'n crime fighter that rides a horse? Naw, I don't thinks so.
That's ok, Jim. Let's talk apples to apples. Let's not get into a pee'n match. OK? :)
Am sure other readers & lurkers of this post can remember killing over weight critters too.
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L4F thanks for the info/reply.
LL, What is Heisenberg's uncertainty principle? Still waiting for the answer. ::)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle
Basically states that,
just the fact that an object is in an experiment, influences the outcome of that experiment.
If you've seen the teachers of the night video where the coyote works a dirt hole from the back,
That experiment, IMO, didn't show that coyotes usually work the backing side of a dirt hole, it showed that they don't want to turn their back on the camera that was filming them.
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I'm one of those people when I describe something I use other things or subjects to make people think about it... I don't want to be like Obama but Lincoln did this and even Jesus when he was spreading his word. What I like to use when it comes to coyote hunting is the kid that goes into the pool hall and just shoots at the balls and has no strategy for the follow up shot.. So when it comes to coyote you just don't go out there and call... I do hunt coyotes like the mammals we are... I think of things that effect the human mammal and I use them on coyotes and fox since you never know if if Wiley is around..
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Now some hunters will say that any old coyote howl or sound or bark will call in all coyotes... It is IMO that our Pa Eastern Coyotes do use communications to talk to each other... I have tremendous luck with the cheap Randy Anderson Power Dogg electronic caller... Randy Say's the coyote vocals are a challenge, a female invitation howl, coyote pup distress, group howl, and the lone howl... Now I do have other electronic callers that have coyote vocal on but it just seems I do better with this $99.00 electronic caller for coyotes.. I know of others on here.. Dreamcatcher and Jaspr etc that have called in coyotes with the Primos Power Dogg electronics.. Gee I hope they remember that they called in coyotes with their Power Doggs etc. So if Randy says it's a challenge it's a challenge and it seems to work for me... I do use it at the appropriate time too... I never do challenges right at the beginning of my sequence.. I do them at the 35 min mark...So here is the yanking chain concept I use... a human doing coyote talk either with a Primos Power Dogg and or an open reed call and I'm calling them in...I'm a mammal they are a mammal... I think of things that upset the human mammal and those same things that upset a human mammal will upset the coyote the mammal...Now IMO those old dog coyotes and some of those old big fox lasted that long out there because they have some smarts...So by yanking the appropriate strings you get them so upset they drop their guard and come in for a look see.. Now the coyote vocals are just the tip of the ice berg.. there is so much you do have to do to make the perfect set up... I will even tell you where I'm the weakest... That is the shooting area... However thanks to Ernie Wilson shooting rest I have now over come that area... Also another bad area is again... Taking people who are not discipline.... I know Ernie will vouch for me on the one person I went hunting with him with. Ernie had to correct because of his unsafe gun handling... This guy has missed from a shooting rest three coyotes that I have called in 50 yards for him... This year when he calls I just can't take it or him hunting... I need to be shooting at those coyotes not someone who just doesn't have the ability and WHO is truly an unsafe hunter... So to be an outstanding Eastern Coyote hunter you have to put all things together.. A plan... If someone in that plan doesn't do what they are suppose to do... It' over!!! Also you do have to be careful when you get out of your car... Even me... I was hunting with Buckwheat.. I placed the shooting rest up against the van and OH it slipped down with a big bang!!!!! Yep I wrecked that particular stand up for sure...There is one good thing with hunting with other people... When your traveling from point A to Point B you discuss failures on stand... My son last year made me see one heck of an important area of calling that I wasn't aware of... When he pointed it out I could see that wow was he right abut that certain area of calling.. Now I use that concept and truly more shots will be fired at coyotes this year then other years that's for sure..
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Over weight leads me to believe the critter had less pressure.
Your thoughts??
Hern, I believe your correct, less pressure, plus easy food source. This guy went 37 pounds which is really big for our desert coyotes. He was estimated to be a 2 year old, living close to the ranch house with no hunting pressure and fairly easy prey source. I have killed some old ones, eight to ten years old that barely tipped the scales at twenty-five pounds.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v603/johnp18/Coyotes/075.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/johnp18/media/Coyotes/075.jpg.html)
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(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/Leglifter/HPIM0079.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/Leglifter/media/HPIM0079.jpg.html)
Agreed
I took this old 72 pound male from a stretch of river that was very hard to access and had no trapping pressure at all
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Our small mature first of year coyotes in Pa are 28 pounds... Now the Old Dogs they get up to 50+ from my experience...The ones I have harvested after Christmas in restraints are from 32 to 38 pounds...
Yes food does make critters fat....I'm talking about the critters that go up to the top of the hill and bark and bark and bark but know something is up below...Now thanks to people like Coyotejohn I learned this from him... You hit them with the Coyotepup distress when all else fails.. I do thank Coyotejohn for that valuable bit of guidance...
Yes food will make things fat....Maybe it's my fault for the debate... We assume that if a coyote is fat it's old. However more than likely when a coyote does get up to be 50 pounds in Pa it sure knows how to hunt and get food and IMO it's probably from being around many a years from paying his or her dues....
I'm also a believer that many of the Pa coyotes are harder to bag in different areas of the state too..Wow you get a small farm and your shooting area drops down because of all the confined corrals barns, multiple county roads, ranch houses , developments, and the populations.. But places like this have the making of a big wise old coyote to survive.
Why the coyote that won the Mosquito Creek Hunt was from the populated farm county of Cumberland this year!!!
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Funny...again this IMO....apples and apples, oranges and oranges ... we are talking Pa Coyotes and not Western coyotes ... Beavers are not called in with a call.. LOL You truly are using the apples and oranges to drive a point...topic is coyote pressure not western coyote pressure nor is it beaver pressure..
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East, west, north or south pressure is pressure.
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But again each region is different... some place you can hunt night and day.. Others day and only by the light of the moon, no lights... Some you can't hunt at night at all..
Then there are populations! Some places it's so populated that just by playing JS Dying Rabbit cassette you will call them in... Some places pigs distress, some domestic cat distress... Now you take good ole Pa... I never called them in with Wild Pigs, or domestic cat sounds..
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The primary area I hunt is now open 24/7 as of two years ago. Additionally the ADC guys are permitted aerial gunning, leg hold traps and snares. We have two full time ADC guys working coyotes on a forty hour basis in our little cattle section, plus every cowboy working cows shoot at them whenever they see them, then throw in the recreational caller. The mule deer foundation and antelope foundation also hire shooters to kill coyotes and mountain lion, I worked one year with both organizations and was required to put in a thirty hour work week or no pay. I seriously doubt that your Pa coyotes see the same pressure. You talk as if the Pa coyote is the Einstein of the coyote world. Coyotes are coyotes, it like playing checkers, not chess.
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My territory is rural. But in your area, CJ, rural may be less human populated with larger ranches and farms.
Can't agree with you more, A Coyote is A Coyote.
CoyoteJohn states-
I seriously doubt that your Pa coyotes see the same pressure.
That's tough to compare, but I will give you some insight on our local, Pa. Coyote...my area of state has a good population of humans that like to be in the outdoors, hunting, fishing, hiking, farming, trap'n, atv'n, snowmachine'n, trail ride'n , logging, boating, 'sang'n, mushroom'n and even hunting Rattlesnakes. Lots of folks all year long in timber and field. Plus Coyote hunting is opened all year long and every Farmer, Rabbit hunter, Deer hunter, Groundhog hunter or property owner will take a crack at a passing Coyote for sure.
My point, CJ, my Coyotes, in my area, see pressure.
Now is it the same pressure as Coyotes in your area? I have no clue and not about to debate the issue...lol.
From time to time, local folks will ask how many Coyote/Fox I killed this season, My standard rely is, "I only kill the dumb ones. But some years there are a lot of dumb ones."
Years back on another message board the east/west debate raged, I was a player, but quickly realized each pressured area (from different areas of the U.S.A.) is the same and different in a weird way and a Coyote reacts and adapts to that area. The Coyote, east or west, was playing the cards he was deal with. It wasn't the state the Coyote was living in, it was the pressure the Coyote was dealing with and reacting too. Hence, a Coyote is a Coyote.
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LL, thanks for the meaning of the Heisenberg principle.
Wow! that's a huge Beaver, nice picture.
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LL that is one huge beaver ;) way to go on that one, you saved the forest!! 8)
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Ii think the biggest issue with many in pa is population density and terrain. Not so much pressure. If they are there they typically come in a survey the situation. Just sometimes callers do not see the animal or he winds them. Depending on how the caller setup determines if he seen the animal. I know one thing is no coyote will always do this or that as i hear how some always say they swing downwind for example. I do know that if i heard a coyote howling or knew they were there , and i could get into position to call him in so that i could see him by using topography to his disadvantage it usually results in either dead coyotes or atleast a glimpse of em. Scouting is key in pa as well as time spent hunting animals. Look at the succesful coyote hunters and they always scout and hunt hard year round. Not just for a few weeks out of the year.
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IMO...HAHAHA......the correlation between hunting,trapping, and even fishing cannot be dismissed here...what has worked for you with other pursuits will give you an edge here....Hern as pointed this out in the past.."Woodsmanship"...When placing a trap, you don't just put it out there, when placing yourself for calling you can't just sit anywhere...you can, but you will not be very successful. Location,scent dispersal,lay of the land all play in here...Scouting is essential like Ben has pointed out, I like to find someplace that has a few piles of fresh scat,at least you know he's taking a crap there...can't call something not there... ;D....if you are lucky enough to find a honey hole unmolested by others, good things are certainly in your favor...look at that beaver....but if your like UB and others around me, we have the infamous SGL170 and other heavily hunted areas...I have been out already and there are fresh boot prints where someone has just worked my "go to spot" for me, 10mins sooner I could have shook his hand...Primos.. :-\...love-hate... love sounds, especially for me "challenge" and "female invitation"..have had action with both..but sometimes caller will fail to operate at a crucial moment..not good...STORY 1..put out my JS tape caller w/fawn distress.. ( yes,the old man from the cave still uses his sometimes)...played for a minute VERY LOUD like something was grabbing it's.... ass...then came with a challenge bark from Pwr. Dogg (which was uphill about 50ft away) 3/4 vol., just enough to make about 2 barks..shut up...Coyote appeared within 5 mins came in from the side...in the brush.. :(.... and stood and looked and looked but would not commit further.. to thick to wade a bullet into him, and not a good id.... location was picked because daytime scouting showed he was dropping scat here on a regular basis and sure enough he was there but as you can see he used the lay of the land to negate "MY" big plan...lol...Story 2...Do you have a dog?? Have you ever played tug of war with him?? You know how they growl when pulling?? My brother taught himself how to mimic this sound with a mouth caller...I was sitting in the stinger position on a full moon night watching a grassfield..my brother was in hayfield next door up against a bale...he howls..I jump..then he starts that growling thing..good god, sounds awesome.. a coyote comes down the hill right by me..no shot, it is hauling the freight....went into fence row and about 75yds howled back 1 time...when we hooked up later I said thought you were going to shoot 1 there..he never saw it....my point being sometimes you have to think outside the box...We knew there was a mom and pups in this area as we heard group sing alongs during early evening scoutings and figured mom was responding to what she thought was Jr. having a problem... 8)... BTW.. wife got me a FOXPRO for this year, my son got me an Eco-tech. They both said tired of hearing me complain about frozen wire...well guilty as charged...I sold my JS and then bought my brothers when he went FOXPRO...sometimes those old cassette players just have the sound they want to hear..it was the last sound a lot of foxes heard I know that...just occurred to me.. ::)..good back..6traps..4 callers...new rifle...zombie ammo...cave man action plan.. ;D coyotes are in for it now...HAHAHA
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I know I told that growling story already but it was an unusual sound that apparently plays with their mind.
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Good info Jaspr! "Plays With Their Mind!" Why that's what I call Yank In Chain!"