PPHA Forums
Predator Hunting => Guns and Ammo => Topic started by: Buckwheat on May 13, 2012, 03:35:48 PM
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Now that summer is here, shooting is a fun thing to do. Not only will it get you ready for the shots needed this fall it can make you a better shooter. I find that after 200 yards things get harder to hit quickly. I find my self checking wind after 200 yards on ground hogs and making adjustments from loading programs for adjustments. I have taken ground hogs out to just over 700 yards but find 500 yards is my real max distance with the guns and scopes I have. In order for me to shoot farther I need a better gun and better bullets then I currently shoot. But since I am a fox hunter and most of my shots are under 300 yards I may never get the 1000 yard gun I would like to have for ground hogs. But ya never know!
How many hunters can make a 300 yard shot on a ground hog. I see the targets people shoot at my gun club and most of targets I see will never get a 300 yard ground hog. I do know we have some shooters in this club that can do the 300 yard shots and thought a summer shooting discussion section on the board could be started.
Anybody interested? We have ventrillo to talk on if needed.
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Here is a interesting read on MOA, good starting point.
http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/6227/mil-moa-or-inches/
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My gun with a 50 gr v max handload typically shoots one hole 5 shot groups. Some days are better then others.
Here are two three shot groups off a bench
(http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj45/bigben8011/af4db7b6.jpg)
I have a .243 i thought i figured out but something still isnt right. No matter what i do i couldnt best 2.0 at 100 yds. I took the gun to a smith he looked at the bore and throat and the only suggestion was free float the barrel more. I put the original scope back on and need to find time to get out and shoot. Since i put the one scope on i have never had good groups and the adjustments are not accurate. If i move 4" on the dial the poi would move 8" downrange i pulled the .223 out and shot a 3 shot group to check my zero and put three shots touching at 100
My tikka has allways been the most accurate gun i own. Getting this .243 running has been a nightmare with two different powders and over 300 bullets i will be upset if it was the one scope i put on it but will be relieved in a way
If it was the scope its going on a trip back to leupold.
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Bigben
Getting that gun to shoot good my never happen at this rate with out having a sound starting point, 300 rounds is a lot. But the scope already has a problem from what you said. If the point of in pack point is twice what you adjust the clicks for. Are you sure it is not a 1/2 per click and not 1/4 per click scope. You may have to put that scope on your gun that shoots good to find out if it is the scope just to solve one problem. I know you do not want to do that but it is a strating point.
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Thats what i did. I stuck the first scope on. The second scope is a leupold rifleman which isnt high end but still clear. The dial is 12 moa at 100 yds per revolution. I turned the dial 4 moa down and the poi moved 8". Remember we had problems zeroing the day i was down? The scope is used so its hard to say whats wrong with it. There could be nothing wrong with it in reality. I just havent had time to get to the range since i put the original scope back on.
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I found that a "trigger job" helped me alot. Brought it down to 1.5 lbs and the accuracy improved dramatically at long distances.
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Longhair
Yep, good triggers help close groups. But hunting guns should not go to light. My one trigger job cost me a deer. I like the trigger shooting off a rest but free hand it is just to light.
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This gun has a good trigger on it now. I stuck a timney sportsmen on it and adjusted it low. My tikka has a sweet trigger from the factory.
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A friend of mine just got a heavy barrel Tikka and I must say I am impressed.Three shot group at 100 yds,nickel size with no tinkering.What calibers do you think are effective at 200 yards or more for fox and coyote.
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Yep, a good solid rest is a must for the long distance shooters.
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Foxtrot
That is a big question not so simply answered. All centerfire rifles will kill bothcritters at 200 yards. What is the best for a quick clean kill is simple. Any rifle that hits with over 400 foot pounds at 200 yards. But fur damage comes into play. What are you looking for is inportant in picking a rifle. But picking a rifle for some one else is like picking a pet dog for some one else. A little hard to do. So if you give us more information on your average shot distance I am sure there will be sone suggestions.
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Its hard to beat the .223
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150 -200 yard shots.little to no wind.I know a lot of guys use the 17 fireball but the 17 Remington seems to be flatter shooting.I know the 223 is always an option but I feel it has to much energy for fox but that's just my thoughts.A longer shot might be attempted if I felt confident in what I was shooting.
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I thought you were looking for both coyote and fox. If you pick your shots and stick with heavier sp bullets the .223 isnt bad
Did you get my pm foxtrot?
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Foxtrot
What are you shooting now?
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For fox out to about 120 I still like my 17 hmr.But when hunting for coyote exclusively the last couple of years I use a 243.It puts them down but certainly not fur friendly.I would say a 200 yard shot is the max for my liking.I will admit this past season I felt the pain on a few occasions when I had coyote at 150 yards give or take and I knew the hmr wasn't going to get the job done so why even try.It seems 150 yards is about the distance for the coyotes liking in most cases.BigBen pm sent
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The 223 has 675lbs.of energy at 2oo yards,that's a lot for a fox.17 Remington is 407 at 200 yards.
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Foxtrot
Yes foot pounds are up there and speed comes into play also. They both can do a lot of fur damage on a fox. The problem is you are trying to cover both ends for fox and coyote. I will put up with fur damage, I am not in it for the fur price lost. The 22 hornet is what people like for fox, but is a little light for coyote at 200 yards. I think I read 10 lb for every pound of animal is a minimal. A 40 coyote needs 400 foot pounds and a 11lb fox needs 110 ft pounds. All this is with a good kill shot. A marginal hit and you will have a runner. I could be off some, but who knows any of this stuff as fact. But it is what I feel works as a minimal when I am looking at a bullet.
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Yes it is impossible to have a caliber that is great for both.Buckwheat,Didn't you shoot a 17 Remington at one time?If one is worried about exit holes what type of bullet would be the best choice?BigBen mentioned soft points which I hear a lot for the larger calibers.
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Foxtrot
I still shoot a 17 rem. Since I night hunt and like to shoot far and like a bang flop gun with the least amount of fur danage with little drop or wind drift. I could have used a 204 or 22-250 but they will cut a fox in half a lot of the time. Not that the 17 ren does not do some big damage some times just less times then the others. If I would shoot a gun that does not hit as hard far out I would have to take shorter shots. My goal was to take a fox at over 300 yards at night. That was done last year with a bunch just under 300. I have seen fox run from some hard hits more then one time with more damage then i will type. Makes it hard to find them at night. If I were just after fox for there fur I would use another gun and shoot them closer. Most fox fur friendly guns are in a caliber for under 175 yard shots in my opion. But when you throw in the coyote to the mix of game to shoot the 17 rem with a 25 gr HP is hard to beat as an all around gun for me.
The problem is I like to tinker just like most people with different stuff. The 223 and 22 hornet have been used by a lot of people for fox._ I am already thinking of looking at the 17 hornet to play with. The 223 can be loaded to shoot close to the 22hornet, and I do like the poited soft points also.
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Here is a video on MOA that is great. I might have posted it before but it is worth posting again. This will help shooting far or just sighting in your gun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA2PZBD5Tjg
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Here is the same guy teaching shooting with wind. There are very few nights that i hunt that there is no wind. Matter of fact, i like to hunt when there is wind. Helps me put critters right were i want them. No wind nights critters are more on edge and can come in any were. So knowing a little about wind goes a long at night hunting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p026Y0WUy6Q&feature=relmfu
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Thanks for those links Buckwheat. I viewed quite a few of the videos there and they made me pull out my rifles to confirm a few things. Very interesting how to videos.
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Scottm2012
I know there are other videos on this stuff, but he keeps it pretty simple and to the point. I figure rather them have a discussion on this stuff. Just find facts explained by experts is the best to learn.
Glad you liked it, I did too.
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yes the videos were great...i sat here for about and hour and a half watchin the nssf's stuff..thanks for the link
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Cooper13
This stuff helps make evryone a better shot if you think about it and then put it to use in the field. But you have to shoot enough. Shooting with knowledge and shooting a lot can make a good shooter.
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Lets look at rifle recoil :-) I personaly am not a big fan of big recoil. It causes me to flinch. :-(
Any way here is a nice chart on recoil. You can easly see why the 17, 22hornet and 223 are liked by a lot of shooters.
O no another link.:-)
http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm
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Lets look at rifle recoil :-) I personaly am not a big fan of big recoil. It causes me to flinch. :-(
Any way here is a nice chart on recoil. You can easly see why the 17, 22hornet and 223 are liked by a lot of shooters.
O no another link.:-)
http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm
So this is probably over 20 ftlbs, eh?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xohy9gWz7kk&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLBFF4E7B4F27770B0
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What scope recommendations for 300 yard shots?Do you need an easily adjustable focus on a scope that you will occasionally be used for 300 yard shots but in most cases less than 200 yards?Some of your scopes have a focus knob on the side that seems like a good idea for extreme range differences.What about power at those ranges,is 12 power enough?
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I wish my 4-12 leupold would be in working order right now. On the 300 yd shots it would be nice to have more then 9 power.
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foxtrot
Most fixed parallax scopes are set at 100 or 150 yards. Many rimfire scopes are set at 50 yards. If you shoot at a range that is closer or farther than your parallex free range, you will have some error. This error is visible if you fix your rifle on steady rest (like a shooting bags) and move your head side to side while focusing on the target. You will notice your crosshairs seem to wiggle or move around. By doing this test you can see how much error you are getting. For big game hunting, fixed parallax scopes usually don't pose a problem because of the larger target size. As a fixed parallax scope's power increases or if the objective lens gets larger, the parallax error grows. A 32mm objective, fixed 4x power scope will have very little parallax error at varied ranges. A 12 power scope with a 50mm objective will have a larger error at varied ranges. There is a way you can "cheat" the parallax error on a fixed parallax scope. This is done by moving your head back outside the normal eye relief zone until you see a black halo around the picture. Make sure this black halo has equal thickness the entire way around the sight picture and then touch the trigger.
conclusion:
For precise benchrest and varmint shooting at ranges greater than 200 yards, I recommend using an adjustable parallax scope to ajust out the error. You will definitely see your group sizes shrink when the parallax error is diminished.
Not to sound like a salesman, but the Nikon Buckmasters 18power scope with target turrets is a pretty slick scope without breaking the bank. Perhaps I'm biased because I own one. ;)
Happy shooting!
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wow...great stuff
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Im stuck at 300 yds appx. Longest shot so far is 330 yds lasered. I missed a hog at 450 the other night with the .243. I didnt account for the wind. Stupid mistake. If i would have accounted for it i might be looking for 500 yds
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Bigben
That is why I said a 300 yard shot is a mammoth shot to start this post. At 300 yards and out things change a lot. When i get over 300 yards I like a good spotter to help me with shots. There are a lot of things to consider closely and wind is a big one.
Just think how good the guys are at making all the calculations for the 1000 yard shots. A friend of mine shot a ground hog at 1360 yards. I have be blessed of having him teach me a lot. I had made two 700 yard ground hog shots with his help. I find that my ability with the guns I have is 500 yards is about my limit. That is going to change when I find a gun I like and can afford. I already have a target 6 to 20 luopold just waiting to set on a good rifle. :-) Bigben, That gun that is making them tight groups will shoot out to 500 yards, just keep at it.
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Well we just got done shooting at 900 yds and i have a video of a one shot hit on a sillouette target. The shooter was shooting a 300 win mag while standing shooting off ernies tripod. Very impressive
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I'm a big fan of the .17 Fireball but I shoot everything 50 yards and closer so wind is not an issue for me. If I was hunting in windy conditions beyond 100 yards which I never do for fox, I guess I would step up to a .223 with a 50 grain Nosler ballistic tip. I think the .223 is a great PA coyote gun.
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Bigben
That a great shot, at that far everything has to be just right. Thanks again for sending the video.
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Here is the video
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj45/bigben8011/880ydshot.mp4
It was a neat experience. I ended up taking a .243 that i had all but given up on till the week before i sat down and cleaned the gun down to bare steel. What didnt make sense was it shot incomsistant. Like something was loose. 500 bullets downrange and literally all summer i got a load that was consistant. It shot .5-.75 groups. I mounted a cheap tasco mildot scope figuring that i could dial up and use the mil dots for holdover points. When we got up on the mountian i was shakin with anticipation. 20 rds later i hit the 880 yd target once and the 800 ud target three times. 90% of the problem after the first shot is being worked up. I was that excited to ahoot that range i found myself wanting to look at the target to make sure it hit. Flight time for the .243 was a second and a half. So it took three seconds to hear the smack. I cant wait till i get another chance at it and this time i'll have a good scope and concentrate.
(http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj45/bigben8011/31F9C673-B179-4529-A2E3-9379862F2076-2052-00000308E0947E1D.jpg)
This was the mountian we were shooting too. The middle mountian not the far one. It was impressive to be literally within ft of hitting the target the first time. The problem i had was misinterpreting the spotters details on where the bullet was landing.
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Ben that was awesome!!
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damn...nice shot