fur prices

[Buckwheat]

Hern
What happens in an area when they are all killed in the first year?

[Pa Goosehntr]

I must be the dummy here but how would anyone known that they were all killed off with coydogs and all??

[Buckwheat]

Pa goosehntr
Well let me start off by saying if you know an area like the back of your hand you can figure out pretty much what goes on.
I scout my areas pretty good and have hunted and known all the land owners for over 40 years.
Late season scouting when there is snow on the ground and talking to the land owners can give you a pretty good read on what going on.
There were 3 locations coyotes moved into were I hunt and talking to the farmers on who and what is taken off the property gives a good starting point. Then to walk the areas in the snow will confirm if the fatmer thinks they were all gotten.
These areas were they have been cleaned out and 2 years later there still is no sign will let you know if they are gone.
The area I live farms do not have much woods. A 100 aker wood lot is huge here.
If I lived any place else it would be hard to make these statements.
These discussions about coyote are just opinions from me a guy that eats and sleeps hunting.
Feel free to believe what you want. But this is why I say stuff is to just get people thinking and not taking everything as fact. You have the ability to take this information any way you would like.
But some might think these statements are worth wile and in some way help make them just a little smarter and better hunter.

[Pa Goosehntr]

Ernie...Not looking for an argument but...those young critters get kicked out on their own and you never know who's door they are gonna show up at...they are opportunist and will take advantage of what and where they can. Habitat and food are required, and if not readily available they will keep truckin...but they do pass through from time to time...   

[Hern]

What happens in an area when they are all killed in the first year?
I'm not a biologist. Maybe you can find a study answering or supporting your questions.

First off, if only a handful of Coyote occupy an area, trapped and hunted hard, maybe they could be killed off here in Pennsylvania. (are we talking Pa.?)

My opinion, if there is a population void, cover and prey available, then that void will be filled. When? I have no clue.
What I have observed as a trapper and predator caller...
In the past 30 years here in Pa., it appears Coyote population has exploded off and on in some areas of the state. By that, first Coyotes gained a foothold and establish themselves in 'prime Coyote habitat'. As population densities grew, so did the Coyote range.  Slowly Coyotes filled pockets of 'Coyote habitat' elsewhere in our state. As Coyote population grew in the next area, carrying capacity or high density population permitted more Coyotes to move to more Coyote habitat throughout the our state.
I've been hearing about 'the Coyote explosion' for 30 years, Buckwheat. It's nothing new. If the carrying capacity is high in one area, Some Coyotes in that area will move on. If Coyotes move to your neck of the woods, you have some habitat that will support their needs. It's as simple as that.

So why haven't Coyotes move to your area years ago and establish a foothold?
Because the Coyote explosion in the northern tier stayed in the northern tier, Appalachian Mt. chain and the Rt. 80 corridor. The best habitat for that critter.
At some point when carrying capacity expands up north, Coyotes are drifting south and setting up home range suitable habitat in the southern tier of our state.
I don't feel it's an explosion, but slow natural occurrence of expansion. 

[Buckwheat]

Pa Goosehntr
I understand there dispersal to some degree. But only what has been written in study's. Personally I think they needs to do a study in the east. New York, Pa and Virginia.
But what I am saying the coyotes were all killed and there was no dispersal. If there was a dispersal nothing ever came back and no new coyotes ever cam in to inhabit the area again.

[Buckwheat]

Hern
I understand the coyotes dispersal the same as you.
I am saying we need more information. Example. Pa game commission has done hundreds of studys on deer and they still learn stuff and come up with new ideas. We have done no real study's on the Pa. Coyotes but every body thinks they know them by hart. It's amazing we have so many people that think there knolage on coyotes are facts and have to be correct.
I say my statments are as good as the next guys.

[Buckwheat]

 Low fur prices and with the coyote here in fair numders already could be the start of coyote explosion everyone fears.
Back to my first statment.
Matter of facts, you might want to take all my statments as facts on coyotes because of my studys. LOL

[Hern]

Buckwheat, what low fur prices are you talking about?

From my reading several fur reports and talking with three fur buyers the only fur that will be low at the start of this season is Mink and a notable drop in Coon, both saw decreasing prices at the end of last season. We knew the bubble had to burst. Some speculators predict $10-$12 Muskrat but historically 'Rat prices drop when Mink prices fall...time will tell if South Koreans will continue to buy 'Rats.
Gary Schroeder, fur market reporter, says Coyote, extra pale with white bellies of the west, range from $80-$100, Some other western states, prices $35-$45, big heavy, Northeastern Coyote (coywolves as they are now being called), prices will move at $50-$60 and semiheavy at $25-$35
Red Fox, heavy to semiheavy will open at $30-$40
Grey Fox will open at $15-$20
Note here, prices I'm quoting are well furred, well put up hides. Don't expect these prices when selling in the round or green or early or damaged put up fur.

About your concerns that nobody will stop the Coyote explosion with low fur prices this year....
I don't know of any Canine trapper or predator caller planning to stay home or reduce his line. Prices will be good for Coyote and Reds, Canines will be marketable.
I can see the Mink and Coon guys backing off, but they will trap, because that's what they do.
That's what I'm reading and seeing right now, Buckwheat, and basing my plans . Who know what will happen by the end of the season in this market.

Many country buyers were beat up last year. By that, Mink and Coon prices dropped toward the middle-end of last  season.
By that time, Country buyers had already laid out large amounts of cash to buy Mink and Coon, then the bottom dropped before they sold these pelts.
They lost money on these items and will be very hesitant to buy Mink and Coon this season, but they will buy, but at a reduced rate.

 
 

[Hern]

Buckwheat says-
It's amazing we have so many people that think their knowledge on coyotes are facts and have to be correct.
Am sorry I came across that way.
I try to post and reply from my personal observations and experiences through  trapping, Coyote calling and scouting.

Arnie Hayden, PGC Biologist, did a Coyote study. I think in the '90's.
Dick Hildagrass trapped Coyotes for Arnie. Radio collars were then placed on Coyotes so to monitor movement and released at same spot.
Maybe you could contact the PGC or PGC Biologists Matt Lavello or Tom Hardisky, for Arnie's Pennsylvania Coyote Study.
I also would like to see an undated Pennsylvania Coyote Study.

Ten years ago or more, I contacted the PGC about the low numbers of Weasels. I ask if they would do a study. Answer, no funds available.
Four years ago, I ask the PGC to do a study on our low and declining Muskrat population. Answer, no funds available.
   

[Leglifter]

Buckwheat says-
It's amazing we have so many people that think their knowledge on coyotes are facts and have to be correct.
Am sorry I came across that way.

 

I thought Buckwheat was referring to himself

[Buckwheat]

Hern
These early season buy prices you are talking about is that at local buyers or north ameriaian fur trading.

I am not sure what market price could hinder out west only here. I also am only talking about red fox and gray fox. Water trappers do not affect coyote numbers.
Gray fox are getting close to that point but red fox and coyote prices will still keep the trappers and callers out there.
I think if red fox ever hits the current redfox prices things will slow up on trapping. I still am not sure what it will take for callers to slow up. Since there is not much work to calling like there is running a trap line every day. 


 

[Buckwheat]

Leglifter
Nobody cam across that way. You are my friend and I would have call you if I was upset. Everybody is just stating what they think are facts including me. My piont is there are no facts. Only people that think they know the facts from hearing misinformation with some facts mixed in and repeated so many times on the internet.
Hern
Getting a study on coyotes the way coyotes are hated would be a hard sell. They still need to do 25 more study's on deer.
Remember deer is what makes the money. It is hard to get funds fir other projects. Pluse it require real work. The PGC is big on using parts of studys from all over the place. Real field leg work from people that like there work that much could be hard to find anymore.

[Hern]

These prices are reports from national publications.
Not from local buyers.

[Leglifter]

Leglifter
Nobody cam across that way. You are my friend and I would have call you if I was upset. Everybody is just stating what they think are facts including me. My piont is there are no facts. Only people that think they know the facts from hearing misinformation with some facts mixed in and repeated so many times on the internet.

That's exactly what I was getting at,(we've had this discussion before)
There are no solid gospel "facts" in MY OPINION.
What one hunter or trapper experiences may be the total opposite of what another experienced. And the guy who witnessed a certain behavior thinks that "that always happens in that situation"
I feel those animals ( and us humans) are just blowing in the wind like forest gump. And each one can field their situations in different ways. It may be a result of that animals passed experience, a taught behavior by parents or siblings, or a different perception of instinct by that animal that changes these "facts" from one animal to the next.
We all like these discussions.
I was just poking fun at you a bit because I've seen your thoughts change on matters over the years.
And they should to a point, we can't be so gullible to think we know it all, because when you think that way, your'e not open to learning anything new.
Theories change because situations change.
I wise man once told me that "if you don't learn something new everyday, you weren't paying attention.